Pack Question - Page 1

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vonHoss GSD

by vonHoss GSD on 01 October 2008 - 16:10

I have five adult GSD's.  One male who is 8 yrs, four female 's 11, 3, and two are 2.  The 11 y.o. spayed female is kinda the leader of the females.  The male is the alpha.  I never had a problem with fighting, all the dogs know their place with me as the pack leader!  I have always been able to let my dogs out in the fenced in yard with no problems.  The other day I let the dogs out and went into the house to take a shower.  Whe I got out of the shower I could hear there was fighting in the backyard.  I went outside and found my older 11 y.o female bitten very badly about her ear, neck, and back.  I took her right to the vet.   Vet said that more than one dog did this.  I know my male was not involved, but I cannot believe that the three females teamed up on her!  She will be ok the vet said and is on several medications.  She is eating ok now too.  I will never put her with them again.  I did not see this coming, everything seemed fine.  Is this normal for a pack to act this way?


snajper69

by snajper69 on 01 October 2008 - 16:10

You lucky your older female didn't get killed, I will tell you that. I don't recomend leaving any same gender dog unsupervised, they will chaleng each other every now and than, it just the way it goes.


snajper69

by snajper69 on 01 October 2008 - 16:10

Oh by the way I wouldn't be so quick as to say that she was jumped by the whole pack, females are a dirty fighters many will tell you that females fights are always more messy than males, so it might be just reorganization within a pack. Is your older sitll showing dominance? If yes, than because of her ages some other youngster was trying to challenge her. That's all there is.


snajper69

by snajper69 on 01 October 2008 - 16:10

Oh by the way I wouldn't be so quick as to say that she was jumped by the whole pack, females are a dirty fighters many will tell you that females fights are always more messy than males, so it might be just reorganization within a pack. Is your older sitll showing dominance? If yes, than because of her ages some other youngster was trying to challenge her. That's all there is.


Two Moons

by Two Moons on 01 October 2008 - 19:10

Perhaps at her age the other dog's sense a weekness.

The two year old's are just coming into real maturity and looking for a new order possibly.

It's a shame you didn't actually see the event.

I can leave mine together with little problem but it's only a look away.   If I separate them and then bring them back together they must go thru the ritual all over again to reinforce the order, I never know when the order will change.

It's worth caution and supervision when they are first let out together.  Anything can set off a despute, even a favorite suning spot, or a stick or a toy.    Mine are competing over the last of the grasshopper's at the moment.

I don't think it was your male at all,  I would keep the younger girl's separate from your 11 year old from now on, or at least be there to supervise.

At 11 she deserve's a little special treatment anyway.


by susanandthek9s on 01 October 2008 - 21:10

You are indeed very lucky that your old girl wasn't killed--this is what the dogs attacking her probably meant to do. Why? It's most likely her age. She's older and weaker now, and this makes her vulnerable. I remember an Italian Greyhound breeder who left her 5 IGs loose in the house while she ran a 10-minute errand. She came back to find her old IG dead with his throat torn out. The rest of the pack had killed him--and these were sweet little IGs! There had never been any previous aggression within this pack. This is just a horrible thing that some dogs do--they eliminate the old, weak pack members by killing them. Even worse, the rest of the pack will often join in or stand aside instead of helping the old dog when an attack starts. Sadly, this is all normal pack behavior. There are many dogs who would never do such a thing, but there's no way of knowing what your dog will do in such a situation. All anyone can do is make sure that their pack is always closely supervised when they're together, no matter how well they've gotten along. I'm glad your old girl will be OK.


by Alabamak9 on 01 October 2008 - 21:10

Two Moons is correct, She is older and while has been the alpha when one of the dogs female for sure started it  with her the others will join the side of the the stronger dog and pack up.  I never leave any dogs together while unattended and most never are out together  period even with me present. I have a older frail female and she would be the type to  start a fight and in no way could  win one so it is best for separation except male and females.

Marlene


by Rainhaus on 02 October 2008 - 00:10

I agree


katjo74

by katjo74 on 02 October 2008 - 01:10

When dealing with 'packs' with same gender dogs, there's always potential for a disagreement to occur and end up in disaster, even with spay/neutered GSDs. It doesn't take much to set it off, either-could be going after the same toy, or one being grumpy/moody, one finding a little piece of food,  or another sensing a chance to move up the chain of command, one coming in heat, leader giving off signals of weakness, maybe a signal miscommunication between dogs, etc. If you run same-gender dogs together without restraint and haven't had an issue, consider yourself very fortunate. It can even take 4-5 years for the issue to occur, even if they were raised as pups together. And once it does, you'll never forget it.  
We don't run adult males together nor adult females together for this reason-juveniles (less than 18mos old usually can have decent temperaments to get along with other younger GSDs of the same gender but don't need to be left unsupervised) I might allow together sometime. But its not worth the risk the potential explosive reaction with valuable dogs to try putting multiple females together, or multiple males. I, too, have always heard female fights is far worse than males.


Palestar

by Palestar on 02 October 2008 - 19:10

Well,

I have one big happy pack family.  I split mine up into "play groups" based on personality.  I don't put my alpha personalities together no matter what the age.  But I can put one alpha and several passives together.  I have one male who rules all the bitches. I have another male that is very easy going with all, even the big stud.  Ironically, my big bad, stud of studs (in his mind..lol) only bows down to my 6 yr old, neutered, yellow Lab!  It never ceases to make me smile especially if they don't know I am watching...but he will crawl over to him and slowly laaaayyy across the path of the Lab who pretends to be annoyed if he knows I am watching and licks his head if he doesn't know I am watching.  I shuffle around different combinations of playgroups so that no one is a stranger to anyone.  The only time any of my dogs go into isolation is when they are about to come into heat..then the rules are off.

Through the years I had one bitch fight between a older female and a spayed dominent type.  It pissed me off because I got bit in trying to break it up and as soon as I got bit and went to hollaring they forgot about each other and came to see what I was yelling about and THEY didn't have a scratch on them!  But they run together today with no issues. The older female was getting ready to come into heat (earlier than normal that time).

I am THE BITCH...the ultimate and I don't ask, I demand that MY order stands, not theirs.  Sometimes if I see a look I will direct my main male over there and as soon as they see him, they forget about each other and go to sucking up to him.  For good measure he'll pick one of them and just lay on them and they will squeel and wriggle and I allow it.  My male will lay on them until I call him back...still it is MY calling him off.

It all seems so complicated when I try and write it out and explain it. but is is so just a part of life. I do NOT recommend people doing what I do unless you have a very thorough understaning of each dog you own as well as animal behavior and nature.  Plus you have to be in control  and they have to know it.  It helps if you have a male (dog) to help keep the bitches in line too.   A pack is never made up of just one female yet is is hard for people to grasp the same thing for dogs.  I know most will tell me the usual I am lucky, it will happen, ...etc, etc....that's fine, very few can understand how peaceful and nice it is at my house. 






 


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