The AKC Standard and Whites - Page 1

I imagine I am probably going to either : 1. Get chewed out 2. open up a can-a worms 3. have to dodge alot of flying objects for raising this question or 4. get burned at the stake -- but I am curious as to what the members on this board think. It's not so much a debate or a discussion...rather it's just a statement of opinion.

Here's the question (and please read the background after the question to put it in context)...it has to do with the AKC standard more than anything else. If you were given the choice to support either of these options...which would you support :

1. Have the AKC standard altered to allow for White to to allow to be shown as a GSD.

2. Support whites not being allowed to be registered as GSDs....thus supporting the separation of the whites into a separate breed

Now the context -- as most of you probably know I love GSDs...but I am amoung those that hope to separate the Whites from the GSD -- as they have already done in Europe (the whites are recognizd by the FCI as the WSSD...and they are doing quite well...competing in sport, working, etc...).

Well -- every year after AWSA (American White Shepherd Club Nationals)...we have [b]The Discussion[/b]....which is basically separation vs. acceptance. The separatists argue that the majority of GSD people would rather see the white become a registration DQ within the GSD breed, and the acceptists argue that the majority of the GSD people would be OK with the White becoming a full member of the breed and allowed to show along their colored brethren.

The hang up right now is the GSDCA -- if the GSDCA were to remove the white completley (as the SV did) then our white dogs would be free to enter the FSS as White Shepherds...as they would no longer be German Shepherds. On the other hand they wont remove the DQ either (I hope they dont...because that will create an incredible gap between our dogs and the European WSSDs). They're just sitting on it so that they dont have to make a decision (on one hand they loose a ton of registered GSDs....thus dropping their rank in the AKC popularity contest...on the other they piss off the SV).

I understand this might be a gigantic waste of time for most people...but for those that are interested in answering, could you give me a bried explanation of why?

I'm mostly just interested in the reasoning...and I will try very, very hard not to argue my point (hard for me...because I like...um...discussing]) Thank you so much, and I very much look forward to hearing what you have to say.

~Cate

#2 because I believe the AKC should adopt and follow the SV standard.  An additional  benefit would be  maybe somewhere down the line, if breeders work hard enough, the Am Line dogs  will actually start looking like GSDs instead of ASSs.

I think I'd like to see the White Shepherds seperated into another breed or least a "variety" under AKC prior to complete seperation.  Part of it is that I'd like to see the AKC (and GSDCA) adopt and follow the SV standard for GSD's  

Most of the whites in my area are actually structured closer to that standard than the Am Line's in the area.  Since they've done so much work with the whites and seem to be making a real effort to develop them, I'd like them to have the opportunity to grow their "breed" without the hinderance of being a DQ

I'd, also, like to see our color GSD's get back to looking a little more like one breed and not so different.  Adopting the SV standard would help with that goal.

Melissa

#2.  This would actually support the people that want to breed the color but make it a seperate breed registry.    As currently written the white is not acceptable, at least to the SV.  AKC doesn't care as long as you send money........

There is a conflict between the goals of the GSDCA... which would be to get rid of Whites and pretend they never existed. and the funtion of the AKC, which is to register purebred dogs.  Because the White german Shepherd IS a purebred the AKC will not suspend registration of them as German Shepherds.  The GSDCA has no power in this.  Just as appeals to the AKC to allow whites to show in GSDCA and all breed shows is not within the power of the AKC, as they do not set the standards for each breed, and only the GSDCA can change the standard.

I have past experience with the WGSD... having shown and raised them for quite a few years.  Back in the late 70's I made the statement that the worse thing that the GSDCA could do for the supporters of whites would be to remove the disqualification for white, and allow them to be shown.  At that point the conformation was HORRIBLE!!  Not one white could move with the GSD's suspended gait... they were generally oversized, square dogs with extreemly short coats, often with tails that were shorter than most GSD's

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this was one of the better dogs of that period... great head, earset, tight feet, level/strong back and a temperment beyond reproach.  Because of the disqualification people across the US and Canada began showing  seperately. Started educating themselves about conformation and movement, began linebreeding and bringing in standard lines which carried the correct conformation, while keeping the color they liked.   A number of the dogs over the next 20 years were exported, to Holland, Germany, Switzerland and elsewhere in Europe as the whites in SV litters were destroyed and not available to purchase or breed. 

   Politics being what they are.. the supporters of whites argued whether it was better to try to get accepted as a variety of the GSD (which would require support from the GSDCA and AKC) or to register with UKC and the International Kennel Club as a seperate breed.  Evenutally those exported dogs were registered as the Swiss White Shepherd and are now being shown as a seperate breed.  A white born to an AKC litter can't be bred to them unless they are double registered with another registry as a Swiss White Shepherd.  Unfortunately that doesn't answer the question of what happens to Whites who are born from standard color parents.

   The fact is that the GSDCA does not have the ability so remove whites from registration in the US.  Unlike the way registrys and such are in Europe where in the breed club has power over both the standard and the registrations.

AWSA has actually spoken to the GSDCA and the AKC about this...what both AWSA and the GSDCA were told by the AKC was that if the GSD standard was altered to resemble the SVs and disqulify the White from registering, we would be recognizable as a new breed. A lot of stuff has changed in the last several years with the whites...and AWSA has made a lot of contacts....but the fact remains that it *is* in the hands of the GSDCA now....not the AKC. I'm relatively familiar with a lot of the actions that have been made in that direction by AWSA...and I can tell you for sure the hold up IS the GSDCA.

~Cate

I don't really know anything about WGS, but wanted to post this thought / question. When you breed WGS to eachother, don't you still have a chance of having a colored puppy in the litter? If so, would that puppy still be able to be registered with AKC should these registry changes occur? Just wondering what your thoughts are on that.

Barbie

White to white always begets white :)

~Cate

Okay, got it. I was thinking of mixed litters I'd seen, but they must have had colored parents. Thanks for the info!!

Personally I think they are all German Shepherds. I live with both colors and they are obviously the same breed although they look very different. I would like to see less emphasis on color and angulation and more emphasis on temperament and health. Separating the white dogs will narrow their gene pool. As soon as you start selecting specifically for color, other traits fall by the wayside. White GSDs aren't albinos and they don't necessarily have any more health issues than traditional GSDs. I don't really understand what the problem is. If they were all interbred the only difference would be coat color, and just about everything else is more important than that. I don't like the AKC show dog or the SV show dog. They look like a "Stylized" version of a GSD. So I guess it doesn't matter to me what the AKC does.