question about pack attack - Page 1

I have a questiuon from the canine experts.

If lets say, a pack of canines attack a loner new entrant in the pack who takes the liberty of entering the pack.

What would be the right scenario?

Will the alpha go for the bite first and there will be onlookers packmates waiting for the alpha to give them a signal to join in the attack? OR would the whole pack take a lead and attack the loner all at once?

Please someone who is sure on this issue clarify this.

regards & Thanks a lot

I believe that lower members of the pack are inclined to act first, but my pack knows that serious aggression isn't tolerated.  The confident alpha would efficiently and conservatively allow other members to teach the newcomer its place.

To teach a peaceable coexistance, I would first split my existing pack into portions, introducing the newcomer to the more subordinate pack members first.  After a few days of regular outing together, and the newcomer seems well accepted, then place the newcomer among the more pack-driven dogs with a careful eye ready to bust anyone who displays dominant aggression.  Once they learn to be together peacably in smaller groups, later they can learn to be together.  No dog is allowed to be the alpha, humans are alpha.  I tend to let only a 2 or 3 dogs at a time be among any persistant alpha-types, meaning the hardcore ones that constantly assert themselves in my absence.  In which case, I don't leave them unsupervised for too long or too far away.

My dogs are allowed to play aggressively hard together, I don't mind and probably prefer, but a watchful eye and ear can tell when it's building up to truly serious.  I usually have a half dozen to a dozen dogs at any one time, many coming and going.  Not claiming expertise, this is just how it's done here.

You may be asking two different questions here.

With wolves when a loner tries to enter a pack's territory it is attacked by the alpha male who either fights it until it runs off, kills it, or is killed itself, whereby the invader becomes the new pack leader/alpha. This can have a devastating effect on the pack because the new alpha will kill all the pups from the old alpha and then either choose the alpha female to remain as the alpha female or  pick another female as the alpha female. In the absence of the male alpha (i.e. it is out hunting) the female alpha will defend the pack in much the same way.

With a pack attack as you are talking about it seems more like you are talking about dogs. These can happen for a various number of reasons. Sometimes a dog views the intruder as prey and goes after it with the others joining in. Other times the dogs are taught to defend their property and collectively do so. In other instances you have dogs with shitty temperament that will incite attacks and others join in that would not have done this on their own. With dogs it is a little tougher to figure out who will "bite first" as you asked because we have done so much to screw them up over the many years of breeding them. We have a lot of poorly bred dogs (no breed in particular) that would not have survived in the wild, but, do so with our care. You are no longer dealing with survival of the fittest. This can drastically change the rules and the predictability of the outcome of certain scenarios. The basic pack rules still apply, but, there is much more variation than in the wild.

*hehe* I was going to say the exact same thing, but Daryl beat me to it.

With my pack, introducing a new member (even of another species), it's always the lower-ranked individuals who approach first, often coming in with "bluster" techiniques rather than outright attacks. If the new entrant appears submissive, the lower members generally accept the newcomer. Then, over time the hierarchy changes and the newcomer generally finds his own rank in the pack.

But if the newcomer comes in aggressively, the entire pack can go into fight mode. Thus the newcomer has to be under-control and relaxed, or at lesat curious, and not in any sort of defense/attack mood.

I introduce newcomers with the pack members who will be least dangerous first. Then I introduce the newcomer to the upper-ranking individuals, working my way up to the alpha. Exactly like Daryl described. It works brilliant for bringing all sorts of new pack memebers, from humans to other dogs, to cats.

Letting them romp as a supervised and under-control pack helps strengthen their bonds with each other. Rough play is fina as long as it doesn't get out of hand. I have one basic rule in my house: "We don't eat family members." Everyone is supposed to get along, even if they don't like each other. And if there are issues, then I will calmy remind everyone who the real alpha of my pack is... that would be me *laughs*... and everything seems to settle itself back down again.

Daryl: You got it down PACKED"    lol    I posted the other day      YOu have to be the pack leader,,,,Humans not the dogs..

No tolerated aggression  if so , I end it and I am the aggressor not the dog...Dog faces immediate repercussion from the pack leader,, which is you , not the other dog or dogs......doesnt take long to learn if you are the leader...most humans dont know how to do this.

The scenario will be different, as every pack is different.  A lot of variables come into play.   I care for a large number of dogs.  I have very dog aggressive dogs, that can be run with some of my "cold" (non aggressive) dogs. 

If a strange dog were to come up on this scenario, my Alpha or dog aggressive dog, will hit the strange dog like a dart to a dart board.  He will take hold and go to work.  At this time, the cold dogs (non aggressive) will join in against the strange dog.  The cold dogs on their own will not fight, but when their aggressive yardmate goes into combat, they will join in.

Vikram,

You said canine's so are you talking about dog's or wolve's?     I assumed dog's.

There could be several reason's for an attack,  territory,  weakness(injury) or a sick animal, or a kill to be eaten(prey).  The alpha dog could be male or female in dog pack's and would probably make the first move. 

Sex and a bitch in heat might be the most frequent reason for a strange dog to try to enter a pack and the dominate male would address that issue first.

The pack would alway's follow the leader unless there is no absolute alpha dog in the pack.

Dog pack's are not as organized as wild wolf pack's and much more unpredictible.

I dont think there is a pat answer to your question.

Brent.

this might be worth reading: "Alpha Status, Dominance, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs" by L. David Mech http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/index.htm

and this article

http://www.coonhound911.org/info/display?PageID=2387

My assessment is that you are referring to running several gsd in one yard from a kennel that they are released from.  Some people want to be able to run all their  shepherds at one time. That requires the human to be the pack leader, not the dog...and if you have that in mind ,you must become the pack leader., and it is done from the day you own the very first one., and then there are steps to take every time a new one is added...

I know someone who can tell all of you how but actually doesnt belong on a base where newcomers are going to take it wrong...it is a must and must be done appropropriately..No tolerance ....owner gives permission to each animal what he allows . Strict pack power is to be exhibited at all times...becomes the rule of the yard. This also requires strict obedience and strick rules , feeding proceedure and training of all dogs on the premises, day or night , inside or out..Dogs can even be let inside and sit in one room not causing any kind of problem...Not done overnight., takes a real serious and knowledgeable person to train this way,but it does work.