Coat Color inheritance question - Page 1

I am just curious here:  what are the potential possibilities, based on personnal experience and not just what I've already read in a book, of the puppies colors based on the parents colors?  Like if you where to cross a sable (not the AKC 'saddle sable' but the German type 'all over' sable) sire on a black and tan female?  And what about the AKC saddle sable crossed with a black male?  My old female who is a saddle marked sable was bred with a solid black male before I got her and she had mostly black and tan pups with two very dark sables who also had the pencil markings and tar heals.  I have been told that that is not possible, that all the pups should have been black and tan.  I have pictures of her previous litter, though, there were two dark sable pups in that litter.  And one even had white toes! 

And what about a saddle marked sable dam with an all over sable sire?  I know a breeder who has done this and from the pictures I saw, all the puppies were sable except one looked like a black and tan: almost solid black with tan legs, chest bars and cheeks.  I would have never guessed that cross would have produced a black and tan. 

I don't raise GSD's myself, but I love researching the genetics of it when I have time.  I do raise Paint Horses and that's a fun lesson in color genetics!  The study of color inheritance in Paint Horses is very refined and it still can be a crap shoot.  I'm sure it's the same with GSD's, but I am curious to hear anyone who has bred a litter or who has heard some interesting litter color happenings.  A friend of mine who just had a litter last spring ended up with about five solid blacks and one black and tan out of a black Czech/DDR sire and a black and tan West German working line dam.  That litter should have produced nearly half and half black to black and tan from what I understand. 

The litter that I got my last pup out of was from two black and red parents and my puppy is very dark black and red with black flecks all down her shoulders and thighs, but I have seen two siblings who are no where near as dark and don't have near the black extension that she has.  She is eleven months old rite now and is very dark.  One sister who I have seen in person barely has any black on her, more of the blanket pattern without any flecking down the thighs and shoulders and very little mask or mantle.  The brother I have seen a picture of is very pale red with good black markings, but very clean red with no black flecking on him, either.  The older sister out of the same cross that I saw when I bought my pup was that way, too, very lite, clean red but with a strong saddle, mask and mantle. 

But anyway, would love to hear everyone's different experiences.
Thanks and have a good day!

1) White spots (toes, chest etc.) are the result of a different  masking gene!

2) Black to black will only produce black.

3) Black puppies will only happen if both parents carry the recessive gene for black. If one parent is black (obvious carrier) and the other one is a sable or black and tan without the recessive gene, you will not have any black puppy, but all will be "carriers".

4) Sable is the most dominant gene. The genotype for sable is the color, but the phenotype can be different. Some (rare) sables carry the double allele for this color (homozygous) and therefore can only produce sable offspring (no black and no black and tan). I heard the most prominant dog for that right now is Ellute vd Mohnwiese.

5) A sable bred to a black dog will produce only sables unless the sable parent also carries the black gene. If that is the case, black puppies can also occur.

6) A sable bred to a black and tan will produce sables and black and tans. Again, blacks can only occur if both parents carry the recessive gene for it!

7) A sable bred to a sable can produce all coat colors, depending on the recessive genes. I bred my sable Timo-daughter to my husband's sable Arlett-male, and we had sables and black and tans/reds (no blacks since 99% of the showlines do not possess the gene for the black recessive anymore - unfortunately a "crime" from the Martin era).

8) A black and tan bred to a black and tan can only produce the same, and maybe blacks (again both parents have to be carriers), but never a sable (even if the pedigree is showing sables in the 2nd or 3rd etc. generation). Since sable is the dominant gene, a dog which carries it (even if only once from a parent) will be a sable. Some people mistakingly think they have sable dogs, but in reality have washed out black and tans.

9) A black dog will not enhance pigment, as black is also a masking gene (just like white). But he will enhance the markings or the overall percentage of black markings.

These are the basics I know about the inheritance of coat colors. I just recently read an article supporting that in the "Das Schäferhund Magazin" by Werner Dalm and Dr. Haberzettel.

Chris

Sable is dominant over all other colors. Doesn't matter what type of sable. Black is recessive. To get a solid black dog both parents must carry the recessive black gene. A sable dog bred to a black dog will produce sable puppies. It can also produce black and tans or solid blacks, depending on what other color gene the sable dog carries.  Two sable dogs bred together will produce sables. They can also produce black and tans or solid blacks, depending on what recessives they carry. The website below is a good reference to figure out what combinations will potentially be produced.

http://www.ddrlegends.com/gsdcolor.html

Excellent answers... all I could add is that  the dog they're refering to as a "Saddle sable" is more likely a saddle black and tan with a lot of fadeing in their genetic makeup.  Both Black and White are complete recessives... I believe that white is recessive to black even. 

Chris,

VERY NICE summary! I quite enjoyed reading it myself. A book on genetics of any type is not exactly a coffe table book. This is very good for new people and gives the basics without a lot of jargon.

Thanks!