co-efficients of inbreeding anyone? - Page 1

Anyone know any breeders who actually uses co-efficients of inbreeding in there breeding decisions?

Thanks,

Susan

Interesting question and the response, or lack of, will be even more interesting I think. I believe a lot more Am lines breeders calculate COI's than do those who breed imports.

Pshaw!! It has nothing to do with breeding AM lines, rather than importing European lines.  It has to do with not being too proud to use a bloody calculater.  If the importers would calculate the Euro versus the dollar, they would calculate co-efficients.   But, they don't want to admit that they can't do the math!!

Besides, lots of us subsribe to the GSD-Euro list and pedigrees there are discussed and and planned on  Male Tail lines, Male-Female tails, and other stuff that some of us pretend to understand.  

I think there is more pressure in the AKC world to do COI's these days. Educated buyers are asking for COI's on stud dogs and litters, so more Am line breeders are using programs like Breed Mate. Peer pressure is a powerful motivator.  

I thought the European line breeders planned their litters based on which dogs Va'd at the BSZS, the first choice being the Sieger, second Vice Seiger and so on?  Why would they need to do COI's ? YOU do the math.

There are many limitations to the COI.  For one, even in the same litter there can be a fairly wide distribution and mix of different specific genes.  Until we have actual gene mapping available for the masses, we can only calculate probabilities. It has been well known by top GSD breeders since the early 1900's that a single stud dog or dam can carry two divergent phenotypes (and occasionally more than two types).  Some great studs of years past produced two distinct types: #1 > the old herding types (spindly, shallow chest, extreme agility, snipey, little or no posturnum);  #2 > the deep chested, good posturnum, very heavy boned type.  The first type typically came from the herding dogs in the pedigree, the heavy boned types from the zuchtschau oriented winners.  Bottom line is what matters is which specific genes are actually carried, how they are paired in corresponding groups on the chromosomes and which are dominant, recesssive, polygenic and triggered by other genes creating incomplete penetrance. The best folks to determine this are the old time breed wardens in Germany who have many years of knowledge on different producing lines, types and related sires/dams and what they can produced when mixed.  You won't find these knowledge powerhouses writing or even telling much about these trade secrets to others.  Best way to get it is to be in their local GSD club, get to be friends, and buy a puppy or dog from them or someone they "recommend", or do the specific breeding they suggest.  This split between the spindley herding GSDs and the heavy boned deep chested Quanto types exists to this day as far as the bifurcation in type.

 Blitzen,

 "thought the European line breeders planned their litters based on which dogs Va'd at the BSZS, the first choice being the Sieger, second Vice Seiger and so on?  Why would they need to do COI's ? YOU do the math."

You are talking about the SHOW LINE breeders.   Yes, whoever is "Flavor of the Year" at the Sieger Show is who the show folks all flock  to breed to.   Why do you think the ads say, "____ grandsons"  meaning the Sieger of three years before?    Math, spelled MONEY, does negate the need for co-efficients, mail-tail outs, and all that jazz!!    But, Hey, different strokes for different folks!! 

I am lost here, please explain what this is about

Blitzen,

LOL, is there really that much math to do for the COI in the German showlines?  LOL!  Aren't they all brothers and sisters anyway?!?  Most of those dogs are their own grandfathers!  LOL!

I crack myself up!

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

 I don't think only show lines goes with the flavor of the year dog..I think a lot of breeder think breeding with the #1 dog will give them wonderful and performant puppies.  Not True!!

Of course you have to look at coefficient of linebreeding or inbreeding(wich I don't do) when choosing a stud.  I have line bred with excellent results..I have used an inbred bitch 3 times with excellent result and I have done outcrosse that gave me excellent result too. When doing linebreeding you have to know the goods and the bads of your line, not just think that only the good will come out..

German or American....they are all in the same family..altough they look different..they come from the same dogs!!

I though Vickie's comment was quite funny LOL...