SAR question. - Page 1

for those involved in search and rescue.  what type of dog are you looking for?   drives, build, character. 

also, if a dog has some ob, and protection work done, would you rule this dog out?  

will wait for some input to tell the whole story.

john

HIGH drives intense dogs, social dog in general with other dogs when for volunteer SAR work, but not a must if its a police K9, as the Police K9 handlers have a bit more training methods.

Some OB and protection on the dog is not an issue.  Green dog not an issue.  Breed not an issue.   Male or female not an issue.  Build of dog, depends on the branch of the SAR dog the dog is to be trained for. (city, mountain range geographical) Some prefer females because they are smaller and can fit into smaller spaces.   Stamina is an issue.   They can never give up. 

(BALL/prey hunt) drive is a must.  

Most SAR groups I have been involved with in my earlier days as an emergency responder would NOT accept any dog who had any bitework training at all. They want dogs who are willing to please, have high BALL or TOY drive but that are otherwise not high drive. Dogs being used as street police dogs, drug or explosive detection dogs are not suitable either because of the kind of training they already possess. SAR dogs have to have a specific type of training.  Most SAR groups train completely differently than do police departments.

Hodie - I have 2 bite trained dogs who are always willing to please and 1 non-bite trained dog who is also willing to please, no one can really tell the difference because of the way they were all trained.  Only the youngest bite trained has just started on searching.  Depends on the way the bite training and search training was done.  Some teams in my area have a big bias against bite trained dogs while others realize there is a difference in how bite training and SAR training can be done, and go on a dog by dog basis.  Depends on mind set I guess.

Hi Mindhunt,

I have no argument with your statements about bite training and how in some cases it does not or should not prevent a dog from doing SAR. However, as you have also experienced, there IS a mind set, or bias against such dogs with many, many SAR groups. My SchH dogs would have been able to do SAR should I have had time and desire to do it, but I do know that we would not have been welcome with any of the local groups simply because the dogs were Schutzhund trained. I think realistically that the real bias should be about whether a given dog can do more than one thing, and more importantly, whether the handler would have the time to spend becoming competent at more than one activity.

hodie, i couldnt agree with you more about the "mindset" that people have.  i have no idea if it differs from area, such as on the coast, but i know for a fact that the marojity of people in the midwest  have this view.    we now have the option of doing the RH.  granted its not a SAR title, but it has some of the basics.  i dont know of anyone who is in schutzhund just to get RH titles.

john

Hodie,

It is a shame that there is such a mindset. I have one K9 trained and one Schutzhund trained and I do know there is a difference in mindset and some bias between these two schools of training so the SAR set doesn't suprise me one bit. 

I took a K-911 course (very good course for those of you who want to know doggie first aid such as dealing with bloat and heat stroke as well as other potential working dog health issues/injuries) with a group of SAR and K9 people and was AMAZED at the mindset.  "All bite trained dogs are in league with the devil and so are their trainers/handlers" is a really common ideology among the SAR set. It used to be fun to stir the pot so to speak and watch the fireworks  (yes I was a bad girl).  What I was also stunned over what the mindset of some of the K9 handlers, their dogs are a tool like their gun or their cuffs and therefore replaceable (most of the K9 handlers I know would never think that), so sending their dogs into avoidable dangerous senerios was very common, they could always get another dog.

We have a new SAR group here that are taking dogs on a dog-by-dog basis and are not concerned about previous training unless it makes the dog a danger to those needing rescue.  They don't expect a handler to allow another handler to work their dog on a search or any such nonsense (my dogs only go with me or another TRUSTED handler, never a stranger no matter what his/her training is, EVER).

I live in Florida and have traveled to several SAR seminars.  Not only is there a mind set against cross training a SAR dog in Schutzhund but there is a mind set against dog breeds.  I have 4 beagles and 2 GSD's, still working.  When I show up for a seminar with a Beagle, you would think I have a cat on the end of my lead!!!!!  It is WRONG!!!!  It is caused from people who are closed minded and pre-judge an animal based on it's size, color, etc. not it's ability to do work.  Beagles are hunting dogs with great noises, right up there with a Bloodhound and they are a Hell of a lot smarter & cuiter in my opinion. :o)  I have one female beagle I am training for USAR.  You should see the looks!!!!  She can climb a ladder with the big boys, they are half goat and can go everywhere!!!!!!  I am very proud of her, she has accomplished more than even I thought possible.  I was told not to even begin training her in USAR.  I started her and my now 16 month old female GSD at the same time.  I used my beagle to get the young GSD to climb the rubble pile.  I think she thought, if that little beagle can do it, so can I. :o)  She doesn't have the drive my GSD does but she has a big heart and even bigger desire to please her mom. :o)      

I have 6 dogs I train & work in SAR.  4 are cadaver dogs and 2 USAR live find.  I have started my 16 month old GSD in Schutzhund and if she does well with her BH and seems like she is able to handle both, I will continue her in schutzhund training.  So far she is doing GREAT and able to discern between the two.  There is no doubt GSD's are SMART!!!!!  Since she is being trained for USAR she gets specific training in agility equipment, rubble pile searches and building searches.  I think the Schutzhund obediance will only enhance her sharpness and control.  This is my opinion and not shared by most.  I would agree it depends on the dog and their ability to be level headed and obedient.  I personally don't see any difference in training a SAR dog for cadaver & live find.  My only concern is she is not allowed to bark at anyone who is standing on the pile in USAR during a tests.  So she will have to be able to discern between the two disciplines.  Her younger 1/2 sister is going to begin training in cadaver therefore there will not be any issues in dual training her.  I'll keep you posted on how it progresses.

Teri        

John - we have had several dogs on our team with protection training, just cause the handlers were wanting to do that. We also have some that do agility. :) The only concerns I have are about cross training human remains dogs on tracking - we prefer to have specialists who can honestly go in court and say their dog has not been rewarded on live human scent.

Every team is different on what they prefer in a dog and handler. Ideally, people should find a team and then select a dog that will work with that team's training culture. Over the top ball drive is a requirement for some, but not others. I think stamina and persistance are universal, but how that is judged may vary team to team.

My dog was cross trained on tortoises that were not indigenious to Texas (where we live). During live find certification tests, the people setting it up put box turtles out in the search area (I didn't know that of course). The dog didn't alert on them or even mess with locating them, and all was well in the world. It is the same concept. As long as a protection trained dog plays the game rather than is a loose cannon attack dog, it shouldn't be a problem. We are perhaps a bit evolved in our thinking.  :)