The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 15

First of all I would like to say this has been a very interesting and informative thread. 

I have been doing an in depth study of bloodlines lately. I am into working lines so that is where the study started. I have also been studying the influence of show lines on working lines. I was looking at dogs that I have owned, dogs from kennels I have visited, and friends dogs as well as dogs advertised.  As I looked at the good and bad in the different bloodlines of the dogs and I began to see a pattern. Dogs line bred on the Quanto / Canto Wienerau lines were not to be desired as they had mental and physical weakness. And I was surprised to find how many working lines have Wienerau lines bred into them as well. I also noticed this Wienerau  and  Lierberg  split that Gustav mentioned. 

Also I am wondering.........Canto was a bleeder, why was he used so heavily as a stud dog and line bred on?   Seems to me Canto did for GSD's what Impressive did for Quarter Horses. Genetic defects and poor performance.

ironbark, yes Canto had some serious deficiencies genetically which weren't apparent right away.  He may have been soft intemperament too.

The reason Herr Martin considered him so valuable as a stud was his terrific sidegait.  It was truly exceptional, even though Canto didn't have the most perfect angles at either end.  And Canto produced this in his progeny and their progeny.  He was prepotent for this like no other GSD at the time.  Canto could go all day without tiring and covered the ground in the least amount of strokes (a very long stride, thus very efficient in movement).

Herr Martin believed that if this dog was bred judiciously to stock with some gangster blood, this weakness of temperament could be compensated for.  And a fair amount of the time it was.  However, excessive line breeding off of Canto led to the appearance and fixation of these serious genetic problems which included softness of temperament.

As many may remember the Martins resisted the institution of genetic testing to validate pedigrees.   The question at the time was why would they resist this? Each can come to his own conclusions on this, but some have a pretty good idea why, but just won't talk about it.  Much can be said about the good things that Walter Martin did for the breed.  But he wasn't perfect and some believe that his lines produced way too many problems when close linebreeding was continued off of them.  And some of his dogs had excellent working temperament and great conformation.  Like it or not, this was a fact. 

At one time in Germany there were high praises for the working abilities of Mutz and Johny Reinhalle blood.  Mutz was prepotent for correct working temperament, and what didn't come out the first generation from him certainly came out in linebreeding, especially at the 4-5 or 5-5 level.  For a period Johnny Rheinhalle blood was legendary for courage and hardness.  It is too bad that these lines were not used more.

Thank You Preston!!! When you know the history accurately, you can make intelligent decisions about breeding.

Another legend of old was VA Frei von der Gugge, a solid black if I remember correctly.  He was as hard a dog as there ever was.  Filled with courage just like Mutz, he was absolutely fearless and produced it. His working abilities were legendary and he produced a significant number of good Bundessieger competitors, a few of which had terrific conformation and were black and brown/red.  Back in those days show GSDs produced budessieger competitors occasionally.  I suppose that breeders concerned with winning in the showring picked GSDs that would produce more show winners and thus there was a shift away from the GSDs and bloodlines which were known producers of great and correct working temperament and less conformational quality.

A big question remains.  It is the question of environment and focus.  It is known that a puppy from showlines that is raised around highly trained profung GSDs and is exposed to their training with them, will tend to absorb their attitudes and ways of behaving.  What woukld ahppen if sound, outgoing, dominance seeking showline pups were fostered to working line mothers and raised in a oriented profung kennel environment where the training focus was to win in profung instead of show?  Would these GSDs turn out to be good profung competitors?  Certainly most would concede that typical zuchtschau breeding appears to produce on average a somewhat less effective working temperament.  But there are a fair percentage which do have good working abilities which are never adequately develped because their owners just want to meet the minimum Sch and courage test requirements, they don't want to be top profung competitors. 

Perhaps a proper recommitment to re-establishing correct working tempeerament in zuchtscha lines would result in less preferred conformation for a period.  It could be asserted however that the state now reached in zuchschau has deteriorated to the point where roach backs GSDs with rump roll-up moving and loss of male type has occurred and any re-orientation based on a re-commitment to working temperament could provide a good opportunity to get rid of these systemic dysfunctional and commonly accepted traits that violate the standard anyway.

Great thread!  IIRC, it was Canto Wienerau's shoulder lay as well as his gait and prepotence that caused so many breeders to go to him. And nobody mentioned Uran Wildsteigerland as one of the most influential dogs of his time. The GSD has concentrated around a few dogs before, notably around Axel Deininghauserheide/Rolf Osnabruckerland/Hein Richterbach in the '50s. These dogs of course produced Bodo Lierberg and Bernd Kallengarten. Oh, but probably only Blitzen is interested in old history. Too bad I haven't been on the net much lately or I would have jumped in here sooner.

I would like to see all the divides among GSD types eliminated so that we have one GSD again. Realistically, it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime since we have a lot of hard heads and prejudices in each of the lines. The hochtzuchtlinie breeders know they don't have to have a truly hard, well trained dogd and the leistungs breeders consider looks secondary. And that doesn't even get around to American showlines. And the poor Aussies can't even do the protection work in their country AFAIK.

The only way to change the breed is to change the judges. When judges start looking for the things von Stephanitz was looking for when he judged, then the breed will begin to right itself again. Not until then. Individual breeders can breed their perfect dog, but the fancy as a whole is driven by judging and economics. The winning dog gets the stud fees and produces the puppies. Or not. And it should be fairly obvious.

How to change the judges then? Somebody who is better connected than I will have to take that on. I could see a group of breeders getting together to influence change but it wouldn't be easy.

Good posts Preston and Sam1427, I remember Asslame v Klamme(sp) when he first came to the states and was Select 2 or 3 in the GSDCA National. He was Canto son that had a beautiful sidegait, but I also saw him upclose off leash and he wasn't the strongest tempered dog I ever met. I remember thinking that he should be much better with a Sch 3 title...back then a Sch title really meant something. Anyway, those dogs you mentioned Sam are without a doubt very influential in shaping the breed at that point. Also Vello was of tremendous importance and the dogs of his that went through Jalk and the others that went through Betty.

BTW Preston, I had a Frei v Gugge grandson through Enno v Antreftal. Frei was VA 3 if I'm not mistaken and his son Enno was a V conformation dog in addition to being "legendary" for producing working dogs. Now when you say total dog you could put a pic of him in the dictionary..!!

 Dayrlere says,

  "there is a clear division in the genepools of the two lines,"

Yes, and that is what this thread is about. The showlines are over saturated and need some new blood that is why it is SO logical to bring the 2 together. Much research is required for success though! Yes it does take YEARS to do line studies but it is well worth it. I have studied showlines for 9 years now and workinglines for 5 years.  It is alot of hard work, but if you are interested in improving our breed and making them one dog again then that is the only road to success. Like I said before, now more than any other time in history is the best time in my eyes to do this. I know in the past they have tried this with little to no success. So what has changed that makes it a better time in history to do this?? In my opinion we now have dogs in both camps that have been improved by very consciencous breeders. We have workinglines that routinely produce V conformation dogs and we have showlines that have what it takes to work.  If we are careful with the lines we bring together we have a way better chance for success than any one had access to in the past. This is all with thanks to those breeders that have cared enough to improve their own lines where they were weak. Yes, it hard to bring good character back where there has been none for generations. BUT those are not the dogs we would use anyway in our quest.  I hope that this thread inspires others to research and try to use both lines to make the improvements needed so badly.

Debby

As long as dogs are judged breedable by their beauty and not so much on character and the working ability, we will continue to see a steady decline.

Debby, I agree new blood is needed. BUT, it is already here. We have some incredible dogs that breeders do not pay attention to, because the owners of these dogs do NOT spend their time training their dogs for the show ring. The dogs are making their mark on the Trial field! I do not know about you, but I don't see a lot of show line enthusists at local, regional and national events looking on the field to some of these high lines and saying "that's the dog I should breed to." Yet, they swarm conformation events in hopes of finding that dog with the perfect gait. 

The "flavor of the month" is not what we should be looking to for breeding. If we continue to overlook some of the high lines with G and SG ratings we are passing over some of the better dogs! We need to look to the trial field, an honest trial field, where the dog is tested and proves itself.

Sam,

I could not agree more. The SV and it's judges need to change also for it to be a total success. They must judge MORE for working qualities than the kind of conformation they have been putting up for years now. In other words, going back to Max's intention to put work in front of conformation. If we can get the 2 together in what is now considered V rated bodies, then we can start to make major progress.  The judges will also have to become more accepting of working lines in general to make it successful.
 

I would also like to see some genuine acceptance with the major working cometitions towards showlines when we bring them to the working competition venues. After all we are trying to improve and make the changes needed to improve show dogs. Please don't think that I am asking to dumb down the competition!!! Heck NO!  Keep that working bar high and let us prove that we can do it!  Otherwise it is all for naught. What we need is to be treated the same way as workinglines without all of the BS and assinine attitudes. PLUS we need MORE show breeders to pay attention to work and when they have achieved success GO TO THE WORK COMPETITIONS!!!

We can only TRY! Without trying we definately are not going to go anywhere but down.

Debby