Breeding without hip certification - Page 1

With all the concerns about hips, and all the effort breeders are (or should be) going thru to reduce the frequency of HD by researching lines, pedigrees, a-stamps, ofa, Zw, ....  why would a so called "world class" breeder, importer, schutzhund "for the betterment of the breed"  kennel breed a V schIII KKL1a dog to a dam who has no titles and no hip certification thru OFA or any a-stamp?  I thought that a famous, respectable kennel would do all that they could to ensure the health of the pups and improvement of the breed.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that why everyone is bashing backyard breeders?    I am new here and have been trying to learn as much as I can from everyone on here, so thanks for all the info. 

I've seen quite a few big time breeders that don't have titled bitches or OFA done.  Not sure why they do it but I suspect $$$.   Personally, I'd rather have a good, stable, titled bitch that is breedworthy than a top notch stud dog.  I think the females are very important to a good litter of pups.

Sometimes the hip scores are hard to find on the OFA site.  There is also PennHip, which is very valid, some believe more so than OFA.  They should never breed dogs with no hip scores.  An OFFICIAL OFA Prelim has a very high correlation (93-98% valid correlation, depending on the age of the dog) to the eventual adult score, and so is valid to use.  Xrays evaluated by regular vets are not valid to me, often the regular vets can only see the gross issues and not more subtle ones, like with elbow xrays.  Titles do not change the genetics of the dog, but are to be preferred in proving the worth of the dog for breeding.  I breed some females with no titles, (to highly titled males!) but I have worked them, or are working them and know that they have the Right Stuff.  They have WUSV sires, and/or WUSV full siblings.  One of my best bitches has no titles, through no fault of her own, she certainly would have made a fine competitor.  I bought her at six years old, so I did not bother to try to title her when I have young dogs I need to work.  I have kept one of her pups for myself, and my daughter just selected one of her pups for herself for a future junior handler competitor.  Though not titled, she consistently produces fantastic working pups.  Her first pups that she had for me that are just old enough to title are being titled this year.  BH's, SchH1, Tracking 1.  I expect to see a SchH2 on one of her pups before the age of two years, at the very least this year, another SchH1 this fall, and a SAR certification early next year.  The SAR dog wows the handler's contemporaries and makes her very proud.  Of course, these people are all good trainers, too.  No matter how good, the dog can't do it all by itself! :-) 

Veronica

Thanks. I am no expert on this matter, but the way I understand it in very simple terms is that good hips bred to good hips can produce some pups with HD.  However, good hips bred with bad hips will absolutely produce pups with bad hips.  Is this correct?

Nope. There are dogs out there with crap hips that produce good hips. But responsible breeders aren't going to risk it and breed them to find out.

The best of the best can produce the worst of the worst.

I've seen cases where a breeder will breed Dog X because he or she OFA'd good knowing that other pups from the litter OFA'd either displastic or mildly displastic.

The exact cause of HD can be both hereditary and environmental however from what I've researched it's more the former. 

Responsible breeders will use the OFA to examine the result of their breeding (all pups in the litter considered) and select breed worthy dogs accordingly.  The dog can have fabulous titles but if it produces dogs with bad hips (or other defects) it shouldn't be bred.

The use of hip Xrays and other tests for genetic issues helps to try to eliminate that issue from the breed if the breeder is above board, reputable, responsible and not kennel blind.

Breeding is a gamble.  until the hand is dealt, you go into it blind. 

So I guess what I am saying is that if I was this "world class" breeder and I knew of a phenomenal female that was producing great dogs(hips, temps, etc.),  sure I would breed to it before I bred to an OFA female that has no litters or one that produced 20% HD.

I understand the importance of titles and certifications, but sometimes people have to pull their heads out of their asses and search for the light.  Titles do not get passed on to puppies and there is never a 100% guarantee that an OFA dog will produce good hips. 

Everyone wants to run out and breed to the new BSP or WUSV winner, but that's not always the ideal dog.  He/she had her weekend without faults and it is also a reflection of training..  Sometimes the best dog for you to breed is the dog that placed 26th and missed a fricken article.  Or if you got that piece of crap female that has very little drive, virtually no courage, but ya gotta breed her anyhow, why not go to the dog that was DQed because of lack of control, he wouldn't out and tried to eat the popcorn vendor?

Now i'm not advocating that you breed Sparky to the neighbor's one-eyed rescue because it is all a gamble and ya never know what ya get.   

I wish people were as picky as some of the dog breeders on here.  If only the intelligent, healthy scholars were breeding, this world would be a different place.  How many of you made your spouse take a complete physical before you started fornicating?

You go DON! They might ask the breeder to see of hips are done more than likely they have been done of course. I have a untitled female that I breed here my others are Sch3 she produces as well as they do so dont tell her she is not titled. Look at the guarantee a kennel gives with their dogs and go from there...two perfect titled /A-hips  dogs can throw a bad hip but keep that a secret as well. If the kennel has a warrenty on hips  should be your frist concern, kennels are unllikely trying to produce puppies with bad hips. If a kennel is rasing shepherds this is one of the things that will crop up with the breed in any kennel world class vs no class.  Marlene

this was taken off another breeders website, but they do raise some good points in regards to HD

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HIP DYSPLASIA

When people think of medical problems with german shepherds the first thing they're worried about is hip-dysplasia. We've spoken to many hundreds of  people over the years who've told us that they've had to put their dogs down because of bad hips. WITHOUT EXCEPTION EVERY ONE OF THEM HAS THEN GONE ON TO DESCRIBE A SPINE PROBLEM AND NOT A HIP PROBLEM. We have NEVER encountered a dog with hip problems. Sure we've seen dogs walking in a bit of a wonky way, but that has never caused a medical problem.

Helmut Raiser, the new breed warden for Germany's S.V, seems to have come to the same conclusion as us. He says that after 40 years of x-raying hips their dogs are more unhealthy than ever because they have been looking at the wrong thing. What has been causing the problem is the bent spine that has caused the spinal chord to narrow and pinch nerves. (Spondylosis and Cauda Equina.) The friction against the nerve sheaths causes pain which Helmut believes is responsible for the frantic 'drive' that has been selected for, and also the reason why many GSDs are reluctant to sit (he says it's like sitting on nails). As the nerve sheaths are worn away the back leg muscles waste away until the nerves stop functioning completely and the dog becomes paralyzed. He says that the problem has become much worse. "10 years ago dogs were breaking down at 4 years old, nowadays they break down at 2 years old." He is so despondent about the GSD's health that he's considering crossing them with the Malinois (Belgian Shepherds). He says "...the Malinois people are smart. They don't x-ray. They don't need to. If a dog can jump a 2.2 metre wall at 10 years old, you don't need an x-ray."

We want to get smart now too! We've gathered enough evidence over the last 10 years to convince us that hip x-rays are a waste of time. Breeders should select for performance. If a dog is 8 years old and jumping and working well then he should be used for stud. (Wolfram's father Ben was doing that at 11 and still siring puppies. He was 9 when he sired Wolfram.) If a dog shows poor health he should not be used.

Firstly there is no standard system of interpreting x-rays, so different radiologists will read the same x-rays with  different results. In fact the same radiologist will read the same x-ray differently at different times. We tested the radiologist responsible for giving official x-ray readings for breeding purposes. We sent the same bitch twice - once by identifying her by her ear tattoo and then a week later by using her microchip. She was given two different readings - one acceptable for breeding and one not. We were told by the university that reading hip x-rays is not a scientific field but subjective. We had to understand that the first time the radiologist  read our bitch's  x-rays in the privacy of his rooms and the second time in the hospital with a colleague!! This was mind-blowing for us who had not

This was mind-blowing for us who had not used dogs with hips other than 0-0 because we had accepted that this was a scientific appraisal of the health of the hips. Now we were hearing that the 'readings' depended as much on the reader's frame of mind as on the dog's state of health! We would expect this to be so for a psychic reading but not a medical one! Remember we are talking here of a radiologist who has spent years specializing in interpreting x-rays and who is one of only three radiologists in South Africa qualified to give official readings for breeding purposes. What about ordinary vets who do a short course on radiology during their studies?

Vets do not know what they are seeing when they look at hip x-rays. They see the gap between the femur head and socket and the shape of the head and hairline cracks in the bone but they don't know the significance of any of that. They can't tell whether there has been trauma in the area. The positioning of the dog for the x-rays makes a big difference to the gap seen. Muscle tone also makes a difference to the gap. (Bitches on heat or having just had puppies have bigger gaps due to hormones making their muscles slacker.) Someone x-rayed his dogs every year for several years and found that each dog's readings varied by one point up or down each time. A professor with 40 years experience in reading hip x-rays says that he realizes that he doesn't know what he is looking at on these x-rays - what causes what he sees and it's significance. There seems to be no correlation between what they see and actual physical problems.

Yet vets actually euthanase young dogs because they x-ray the hips and the 'readings' are bad.

Growing dogs, usually in their first year, often limp and have what vets coin as 'growing pains'. We believe that these pains are in the muscles and are caused by faulty nutrition (unless of course the limp is due to an injury or sore foot- pads). Giving them bone shavings, either liver or brewer's yeast, vitamine C, vitamine E and micro-organisms to improve intestinal flora (such as yoghurt with live cultures or raw dirty tripe), in addition to their basic diet, rectifies these pains within about 3 weeks. What happens often though is that an owner takes a dog to the vet because of a limp. Because it's a GSD the vet immediately suspects hip or elbow dysplasia (depending on whether it's a front or back leg) and x-rays. He 'reads' that they are bad and predicts that if they are bad at this early age they will be shocking by the time the dog is adult. To prevent further suffering (after all the puppy is limping already) they put him down there and then. Or the vet tells the owner that he has to operate on the hips immediately to prevent them from getting worse. Sound unbelievable? Well this has happened several times to people who have bought our puppies. Here are some examples:-

One puppy was 6 months old and suddenly had a limp. Without even x-raying the vet decided that this was the typical first sign of hip dysplasia and euthanased him! Another year-old puppy was perfectly healthy. He didn't even have a limp. Someone pointed out to the owners that he had an uneven gait at which they rushed to the vet for x-rays. Seeing that the hips were 'bad' they killed the puppy there and then. O