Problem with outing - Page 1

If a highly prey locked dog is put in defense will this improve the out? Is this approach correct.?

When the grip is firm yet unsure can I take the dog into defense then? How do I figure this out?  How do I know this?

cheers

JMHO, but bernhard flinks has the best approach to "out" training and correcting problems with the "out."  if you can possibly attend one of his seminars, you will never be sorry.  his kind of training will stick with you always and can be modified for virtually any dog present or future.  if you can't attend a seminar, the next best thing would be his BUILDING DRIVE FOCUS AND GRIP video.  even despite frawley's narration, there's enough of flinks that comes through that this video is valuable for all folks, novice or veteran.

pjp

I agree with Ziegenfarm. We have been fortunate to have Bernhard here several times and he will be coming back soon. Going to one of his seminars, regardless of your experience, can teach you a lot and the video, if you can forget the narration which often is not at all what Bernhard wanted to convey (based on what he told me personally), will help as well. Just watch what Bernhard does.

None of my dogs have out trouble because I teach it before sleeve work. But Bernhard is really good at solving a variety of problems, including out problems. Vikram, is it possible for you to get some short video clip and email it to me privately? We could take a look at it and perhaps make some suggestions about how to work on the problem. It is really difficult to know since we don't know the age of the dog, his prior training methodology or you. But there are a lot of ways to get good outs, regardless of drive.

If I'm understanding you correctly, then if you do it that way you will most likely see changes in the gripping behavior. A dog that is already unsure or unconfident in the gripping must be taught the out very clearly without confusion and shown it's basically a game. Sending a lot of dogs into defense will make their outing more confusing to them.

For example, when teaching the out from a sleeve, there are some basic guidlines to follow that will help immensely.
1. The out is always given in the same body position every time by the helper. The dog is shown very clearly the difference between the man still fighting on the sleeve and being drawn into an outing position. In this position the helper should lock up very firmly to prevent the dog from getting movement out of the arm.
2. Using this first principle, the dog is never told to out unless the helper has drawn the dog into the trial out position. Don't be telling the dog out while the helper is still moving, etc.
3. The dog's out command is always said calmly but firmly, not shouted or screamed in anyway, and pronounced exactly the same every time. People who scream have nowhere to go in a trial when trouble hits.
4. Whenever the dog lets go, they immediately get another bite presentation given and some movement to the arm, then slip the sleeve to the dog. This is where the game of it can come in and make it very clear to the dog. You are essentially sending the message that "See? It's not a big deal when you let go.....I'll give it right back." For most dogs, the repossession of is more rewarding than just the possession. Same reason why a dog returns a ball to be thrown again.
5. Initially the dog's outing sessions off a sleeve should always end with the dog outing, and getting their sleeve back to carry home. After they are understanding what the out is, then gradually lengthen the time before the grip is regiven and begin the neutralization after the out to the handler, etc.

As far as methods to the out, might be good to start on a backtie and work the out there. Different things can be done. One I've had success with that brings no serious conflict in whatsoever is to have the dog on the moving sleeve, and then draw the dog into the out position and calmly say "aus." Once the sleeve is in this position I basically pin it to my left leg and let the dog get no movement from it whatsoever. Most dogs who are learning this will after 3-4-5 seconds become confused at why the sleeve isn't moving and simply let go. As soon as they do, I mark the behavior and say "Yes!" very happily and excited and give the dog a grip and slip. The helper needs to do this quickly before the dog tries to chew the sleeve after outing.

There is the old line correction when aus is stated. This can come from the handler or the helper. We've used both depending on the dog and it's relationship to it's handler. We've also had the line off the dog between the helpers legs to a 3rd party behind the helper to give the corrections. Handler corrections go back toward the handler, helper corrections bring the dog into the sleeve.

After the dog knows the out, now the discipline of it comes in stronger. Be prepared to make a correction, and be very clear to the dog after the out that they may not rebite unless it is the correct time to rebite. Cap all that drive.

Hope some of this helps. We need to talk about training more on these boards than all the childish nonsense that occurs here most of the time.

                                              Nate

 Great suggestions Nate. I think though Vikram may live outside the US. Vikram, is that correct?

Excellent post Nate.

One thing that I have done with my dog as well is when the helper slips the sleeve you may wish to "cradle" the dog and not let him get chewy on the sleeve.  Calmly and slowly stroke the dog from in front of the eyes down to its tail.  If he holds it calmly he gets to keep it.  Basically to let him know that  a calm grip on the sleeve is what you want.

 Also for those of you that don't know Nate he is an excellent helper.   Dogs from his club have achieved a great deal of success.  I wont name drop but Nate can work my dogs anytime and I am gratful for his and his club members assitance in the past.

Jeff G

Nate,

I am a novice in the sport. Would it be correct to assume the “out” is only worked upon after establishing a strong “bark & hold”?  I am refering to the "out" under defense work.

Could you explain what you meant by the underlined statement above please.

I have attended a club where the correction for the “out” is done on a backtie. The training director (not the helper for this instance) works the out with a longline and not by the handler whose role is only to use the command “OUT”. The explaination for this is not to associate hard correction with the handler. Is this preferable?

Jeff G,

Thank you very much. What a nice thing to say.

Poseidon,

What the trainingt director did that you mentioned is something we occassionally do as well. Have a third party stand 90 degrees off the dogs side and give the out correction that direction. When you start getting into other people giving the corrections, usually the main reasons are sometimes safety sake on a rank dog, the handler is not skilled enough to time it correctly yet, not physically able to make a strong enough correction, or it sounds in your case maybe..trying to avoid some unnecessary conflict and bad association with the dog toward you.

The line you questioned is basically that if I as a handler give the out correction, I am going to pull the dog from the sleeve in a correction movement toward me. As a helper, when I give a correction to a dog I am working, I give a snapping correction into me, forcing the dog into the sleeve with the corrections. Different things for different dogs.

Your very first question with the out....to me the bark and hold and out are taught completely separate of each other and when both are established their paths intersect. If I'm working on building a bark and hold with a young dog, then when he gives me what I want, I don't give him a grip and then create problems by telling him out.

                                                              Nate

yes i'm not in US.

cheers

thanks for all inputs very enlightening.

I'm gonna try and insert a picture I just drew of the helper correction Poseidon. We'll see if it works.

                                            Nate