Let talk hips structure - Page 1

I don't know if anyone here can answer this but I thought I would see.

If a puppy is born with a well formed femoral (Ball) how much does the acetabulum (socket) change or does it.  Say IF (hypo) you did a x-ray at 2 months old and the ball was well formed  but the socket was very shallow  would that change with growth (get deeper) or would that stay the same (shallow). Is this what Penn hips looks for? and why they can give a grade that young is because the bone is what it is as far as the socket goes?. I am not looking to debate about Penn hip or x-ray at this age. My question is about the growth of the socket.

Any information that is madical fact would help

Thanks

EK

zaki, stop it... your link has NOTHING to do with the question being asked..

sorry EK, wish I had an answer for that.. not sure there is one...

I do know according to my vet that the parts of the hip changes from cartilage to bone starting at 8 months of age. I would call the Penn Hip Association and talk to them or talk to a vet that is Penn Hip certified with any questions. The vet I am using now is Penn Hip certified.

Barbara, I would say that the size and shape of the femoral ball would have nothing to do with the quality of the socket-at least at that point in life. But that is an assumption on my part and not based on any scientific facts. When I examine a hip radiograph I look at the roundness of the femoral balls, and my next point of concern is the amount of coverage by the pelvic socket. I then critique the other things such as the amount of visible laxity and ratio of contact, and lastly consider the Norberg angle of the joint's geometry.

I do think as the hips develop that the quality of the femoral ball has an effect on the socket-provided there is at least 50% coverage by the socket. One would think that even with a deep and broad socket that all can still be lost if the femoral ball is not round enough or smooth enough.

Some ideas about the lack of sufficient bone growth point to an underdeveloped ciculatory system in the area of the joint. This does sound reasonable as if there is insufficient blood flow there will probably be insufficient development of bone and connective tissue. But I think that is one of several factors that determine joint quality. We know that hip dysplasie is polygenic in origin, and the reduced blood flow is only a part of the equation.

Best Regards, 

Bob-O 

 Ek,

When you take an X-Ray of a 4 month old pup, all the bones are not fuse yet.  So it is very hard to tell if the socket is going to be deep enough or too shallow. 

When you do a Penn Hip they calculate all the angles of the pelvis and the laxity in the joints.  They can't say your puppy is going to be dysplastic..they are going to give you a range and say this one have a very good chance of being dysplatic du to the laxity and the angle of the pelvis.

Lots of breeder don't do PennHip cause we have seen dog that were suppose to be dysplastic that we're not at 2 years old.

In fact they recommend pennhip and then X-Ray at 2 years.  I only do X-Ray, prelim a 5 months old for elbows and 6 for hip and then of course OFA at 2.

Hope this is helpful.

If one looks at the skeletal system of a newborn pup, one immediately realizes that just as with humans, the skeleton is far from being a finished product and is mostly cartilaginous for many months after birth. The bone is not fully formed in many areas, and in some areas where present, is quite soft. Acetabulum bone is formed from a union of  four bones that does not solidly unite for some time. So, if there is any problem with development of any part of the body related to the joint, including the bones, the muscles (unbalanced or weak, for example), or the dog is carrying too much weight, the soft bone can be injured and result in dysplastic changes. The depth of the acetabulum cannot be accurately assessed until about age 5 months as it is not completely ossified.

An interesting book I read recently concluded that the weight of a GSDs has increased over the last 30 years from 32 kg to 50 kg in males and from 30kg to over 40 kg in females (1 kg = 2.2 lbs). This fact, along with the increased depth of thorax and shortening of the forelimb length, has contributed to bone and joint disease in our dogs. Of course, genetics plays a role as well.

 Bump

Thanks everyone,

Hodie what book are you reading?

One of the best books on the subject is called: "Hereditary Bone and Joint Diseases in the Dog: Osteochondroses, Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Dysplasia". 

It is expensive and published by a German firm. But well worth reading. There is also a lot of new research published on-line if one knows where to look. Some of it however is by subscription only so it can get expensive trying to stay current.