PSA and GSD's - Page 1

Just wondering how many of you guys train for PSA.  From what i've found, there arent very many GSD's in the upper levels.  Is that becasue most people want to go with the dutchies and mals? Or can GSD's not handle things in the upper levels of PSA?  My male GSD got his PSA1 a couple of years ago and has since been retired.  He's got HD in one hip and i didnt want to over work him.  I'm getting a pup in a couple of weeks and am looking forward to getting back on the field and working my own dog again.  How do those of you that train for PSA start your pups?  Many people have told me that OB really shouldnt be worked until thier bitework is solid.  Some have even told me that they dont work OB till 14-16 months.  I dont really agree with that, but what are your opinions? 

After I got my dogs SchH3 I wanted to try something different so I got involved with PSA last Nov....this past June he got his PSA1.  If he was a little younger I would totally love to go higher with him, there's no doubt in my mind he's capable but getting trial ready would require a longer amount of time in training than I wish to continue working him.

I think the PSA crowd is just more Mal and duchie people, just like SchH is more GSD people.  Perhaps less of a percentage of GSD's have the hardness to handle the pressure blanced with the handler sensitivity to control it (necessary for the upper levels of PSA) as opposed to the other two breeds but mostly I think it's all in the training, I've seen plenty of workingline GSD's that I think would be able to do PSA they just haven't trained much outside the box of SchH.  PSA is also very small compared to SchH especially in my area, but I have seen a couple really nice GSD's.

As for the higher levels, yes there's a higher level of pressure (automatic uzi's fired at the dog on the long bite, buckets of water dumped on the dogs head etc.) but with the higher levels IMO it's mostly about a rediculous amount of controlled aggression, which is where all the dogs I saw fail in trial for the 2's and 3's.  If a dog makes it past the PSA1 there's a pretty good chance that he can handle all the pressure, so IMO the higher levels are mostly about control.  (in OB: multiple decoys on the field running around, aggitating the dog during the long down,  in protection: resisting the prey decoy and being directed by the handler to bite the passive decoy, independent decoy transport (with handler across the field), the "call off" etc.

The one that blew my mind was the dog was to go through a tunnel (decoy on the other side right in front of the decoy was a tarp), after being sent through the tunnel the handler downed the dog on the tarp.  One decoy threw hot dogs in front of the dog, a second decoy shot him with a water gun.  Then one decoy picked up a whip and a SchH sleeve, slapped the tarp with the whip within 3 ft of the dog and backpeddeled while presenting the sleeve.  The dog had to stay down.

The good thing is that in PSA extra commands are much more acceptable (as compared to SchH) yes there's some pts taken off but it's minimal...the main goal is to complete the excersise.  So if the dog jumps, if you have the power over your dog to control him with a second command in the face of aggitation or prey, you get most of the pts for the excersise.  This is especially needed in the excersises like the one above where you are totally going against everything the dog has ever learned to do, lol.

Well that's my opinion...like I said I only started PSA in Nov so I don't claim to be an expert JMO from what I've seen.

Regards,

Melanie

Also yes I would do some OB with a pup.  But ALL happy motivational and play, reward with a ball or food and no physical corrections and defintely NO hard verbal or physical discipline that would affect the pups confidence or sensitivity.  JMO.

I recently attended a PSA trial...  I think there were only 2 GSD's, the others Mals, Dutch, Pit....   At the end of the day, a brought-from-retirement 9 year old GSD passed his PSA 1 or 2 (can't remember), got High OB, High in Trial, and High in Protection, and also high HOT. .    The dog had a Schutzhund background.  There seem to be many handlers that cross train in both sports.  I enjoy both sports, but am training towards PSA as it seems to be a better fit for me at this time.  IMO, the protection phase encompasses reality more so than Schutzhund.  I would love to compete in both

.  Both sports can stand alone on their own merits.  Isn't it nice to have a choice .    I have found that the judging is pretty stringent in PSA, and it is not uncommon for a trial to end with few to no dogs with a passing score.  AND I have never heard any complaining yet.  There seems to be a comradery in PSA which is refreshing.  But I also admire the Schutzhund trained dogs.  To do both IMO is the best of both worlds..

I agree that PSA is relatively new, and in my opinion is not widely known about.  I had never known it existed until about a year ago.  As much as I love the protection section of Schutzhund and PSA, my favorite is the OB in PSA.  The shenangans that the decoys do to distract the dog TOTALLY crack me up.  From kicking tennis balls, to throwing tugs, offering treats, shaking cans, riding and running bicycles aound a dog in  a down/stay, spraying water at them, etc. - all during while the handler is doing his OB pattern, is pretty entertaining and impressive.

Here's the web link to the PSA site:

http://www.psak9.org/  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLpMlodgIMU       Here's an OB  training session  I found on youtube.  Love this dog!  ...  gives me inspiration for mine.

StinkyK9....HA! that video is my dog!!...lol thanks for the compliment:-))

Which trial did you go to, which day?

YOU have an amazing dog !    What a great team!!!    (  I PM'd you )

GSDfan i seen that video while back I was totally impressed.

Melanie,

Excellent description and comparison of PSA. This is what frustrates me about some Sch folks opinion of PSA, They are under the impression that these dogs are out of control because the control does not have to be as pretty or precise in the bitework. PSA dogs do get exused for being out of control, contrary to what some may think. I can tell you the control in the upper levels is where most dogs fail. It is extremely difficult to do. Many dogs can't handle the stress and many people have no idea how to train for it. IMO I don't understand why Sch people think PSA dogs are out of control. There is far more control involved. It just might not be "pretty".

My friend Jon won the PSA 2 nationals last year or the year before (can't remember) with his GSD. Very good dog. The problem GSD's have in competing against the Mals is.......

1) The do not have the physical ability that the mals have. You get points for the "hard hit" Mals and Dutchies are faster, more agile, and hit harder. Not always, it depends on the dog, but for the most part that speed = higher velocity impact.

2) Many do not have the overwhelming prey that overcomes the pressure. That equates to thinking to much, and not fully commiting, which again compromises the initial impact.

3) Because the majority of GSD's are Sch dogs with a Sch base. There is no environmental stress in Sch so it is not really a consideration in breeding. I believe this is one fo the major factors. There is so much environmenal stress that GSD's are not bred for.

4) Sch people have the mis-conception that they can convert with ease. Not so. Not so at all. I have seen so many Sch people who fail, then make excuses by saying, "I would never train my dog to do that. Why would I want to do that. That scenario was just stupid, that would never happen." etc etc.

I was sitting around a trial bullshiting with Jose Lopez. A handler who had just failed was doing all that bitching and moaning. Jose looked at me, I just shook my head, and he broke into laughter because he knew exactly what I was thinking.

And finally, all the good GSD's do Sch. If the top level GSD's participated in PSA, and Sch trainers were more willing to learn and adapt to the training, you would see more GSD's succeeding in the sport.

Back to the original question, it's not the GSD that can't hack it. The 2's are very hard and most people trial many times before getting that. 3's..haha there may be a handfull of dogs to even have a 3. There are allot of factors in play, dogs health, dogs abilities, handlers abilities, time, time and more time training. You don't see many dogs of any breed getting 2's and 3's. I't sure ain't Schutzhund!

Personally, I wouldn't even try for a 2 unless I really loved the dog and thought he had plenty to back him up. Training for the 1 is soooo much training and my dogs are just a small part of my world. My family would probably kill me if I kept going. I see people trialing, trialing, trialing and not getting a 1 let alone a 2. I'm not one to bang my head on brick walls for a trophy.

GARD Baden doesn't have much prey either. Do you think he has enough to take him farther than a 1? The other one has plenty of prey but I doubt a female will be as strong as Baden with the environmental stuff. It's always a balancing act anyway. Haven't seen a dog yet that was strong all the way through, everybodies got their weeknesses they "work" on.

Baden has plenty of prey.

If his training is consistant and he is not pushed into trailing to soon because a TD wants to look good, he will do just fine.