OT - Breeding for "Pet Quality" - Page 1

Okay, I'll confess this is a bit of a rant that comes out after re-reading the Shilo Shepherd post.

I see so many breeders that create new types ("breeds") with the intention of producing a superior pet-quality dog. That just gets under my skin with remarkable speed. There are plenty of fine pure-bred dogs that aren't show or working quality and would make fine pets. Infact most puppies produced, even from top-titled parents will probably grow up to ultimately be pet quality. If you're lucky you'll get a show-stopper in a litter, but the fact of the matter is most dogs any breeder produces won't all grow up to be show or working champions, regardless of bloodlines and careful research.

Then you have your breeders who don't care about showing or working dogs, and say they are breeding for temperament and the "ideal family pet." That seems to do a disservice to all the other dogs out there that would be ideal family pets as well... and still within breed standard!

When it comes to hybrids and new types I am not completely against such... IF -- and only IF -- the dog is bred to serve a functional purpose. I had a friend who did dogsled racing in the winter. Their sled-dogs were all husky x greyhound hybrids of various blood purity. Since purebreed wasn't a requirement for racing, they wanted dogs that were both fast yet still capable of handling the stamina required for distance and cold temperatures. The dogs looked more husky than greyhound, but you could see some definitively hound-like features, and the owners freely admitted the dogs were hybrids. A lot of the racing dogs there were husky x greyhound hybrids; it was (and probably still is) a very common cross and they were not the only mushers to have this type.

Originally, dogs were created to serve a purpose, be it killing rats, herding livestock, retrieving game... and most breeds evolved from combining or modifying the functionality of existing stock with the intent of breeding a superior -working!- dog. It's only in recent years that "pet" seems to be the sole motivator for breeding programs.

I see absolutely no point in creating a mix just to have a new type of pet. The Shilo Shepherd, the Saint Dane / Great Bernard and other unlikely combos... if people want a fine pet-quality dog there are plenty just waiting in shelters to be adopted. Why try to reinvent the "pet" when there are so many out there already? I am a breeder, and I will admit that even from a VA x VA cross, the results will probably yield more pets than show-winners. Just because the parents are great and the bloodlines seem compatable doesn't mean the pups will inherit the best traits of their parents. Genetics can be unpredictable like that, and I might wind up with a litter comprised of nothing but pet-quality dogs.

Like those "pet-quality" purebred breeders soley devoted to creating "family pets", it just seems like a selfish, self-absorbed reason to breed... and not in the dogs' -- or the breed's -- best interests.

I agree with you. It is also easy to concentrate on the exaggerations in GSD's but there are many breeders who are breeding well balanced dogs in both structure and character. If someone does their homework and visits breeders, there are plenty of dogs that make fine companions. Rescues and shelters are filled with dogs in need of homes, too.

Instead of making a 'new' breed to improve upon the old, why not work within the breed to continually strengthen and improve it? That's quite enough work in itself!

Tina's reason for developing the Shiloh was far more than to have a good pet.

"When I began breeding German Shepherd dogs, I made a decision that I was going to develop my own type of dog: a German Shepherd like Rex, the dog I remembered from my childhood in Germany.... [note: these dogs, bred by her grandmother, were oversize, and many were long haired. They were excellent guardians, and much in demand for protecting local businesses and homes.]

I had good reasons for wanting to develop my own dog. If you really study German Shepherds year to year, they don't look anything today like they did thirty or forty years ago. The type has completely changed..... [No kidding, Tina!  ]

I wanted a dog that was very responsive and very intelligent, that had the guts to deal with a situation if it really came to it, but that didn't look for trouble.  And I didn't think that the modern American German Shepherd was that dog."

(TIna Barber, The Shiloh Shepherd Story, pg. 19-20)

Amen, Tina,  AMEN!!

Shilohs are great family dogs, but they are NOT Golden Retrievers. One owner recently told a story of a contracter who came back to get some of his materials when the owner was elsewhere on the property. The dog faced him down, and wouldn't let him move until the owner returned and told him it was all right. Some have softer temperments than others, but most have a strong protective streak. My friend's older Shiloh began lunging at other dogs, when she adopted a female puppy. He felt he had to protect the puppy from them. It's taken her quite a bit of training to teach him that this isn't necessary.

Hey, most of those genes DID come from the German Shepherd!

 It is also easy to concentrate on the exaggerations in GSD's but there are many breeders who are breeding well balanced dogs in both structure and character

The problem with breeding dogs that aren't extreme is that THEY WILL NOT WIN IN THE SHOW RING!!  Then, you're stuck with an untitled dog. You can train it in performance events, but no one is going to put a championship on it. Most people will consider it 'just a pet' and if you breed it, you'll be labelled a 'backyard breeder'!

SOUND FAMILIAR??

Try finding a GSD that looks like the dogs of the 50's and 60's...they are now virtually extinct, except possibly for a few working line dogs, but then you are dealing with a harder temperment, and higher drives, something many people don't want in a dog that's going to be a pet.

I totally agree with everyword of above posts.i live in a small town in the uk and i have never heard of shiloh shepherds or king shepherds,so i took a look.i cannot believe people are doing this sort of breeding.do not get me wrong we have our"designer dog" breeders here too,they cross anything,give it a haf and half name and sell them at "designer prices".and sorry to say ignorant joe public buy them and think they have something special.i recently saw a litter of "shepa doodles advertised,i could not believe what i saw.the dogs eyes looked like a shepherd pleading to get out of this strange body!!!!!.these people should be stopped but as long as some poor soul is willing to pay big money sadly it will continue.

>One owner recently told a story of a contracter who came back to get some of his materials when the owner was elsewhere on the property. The dog faced him down, and wouldn't let him move until the owner returned and told him it was all right.

My family has always had golden retrievers while I was growing up. I recall one in particular, a big blond hairy goof, but he would protect the family and property from strangers with absolute seriousness. But it's been my experience that stories like the above are the exception to the Shilo (and Golden Retriever) temperaments, rather than the norm.

Didn't I read somewhere the SV is going to now allow the showing ot longcoats?

If the standard can change over the years from what it was to what it is, doesn't it make sense

it can change back, going full circle?  

If you are looking for a pet, do you care whether it won't show well, or be the first to get to a SchH3?

Aren't a majority of owners looking for a companion pet, a watchdog for their homes? 

Isn't all this snobbery and trash talking one over the other simply that?

Not that I really care, it just seems so damned pointless.  Whether you are breeding for  homes or

police departments, working homes or show homes, ragging on one another here only makes you

all seem silly.  Get indignant if you like, but it will only prove the point.

I don't agree with breeding for "pet quality" anything, be it dogs, horses, pigs, goats, purebred or mixes. Breeding should be done to improve upon an already existing breed. Enough dogs of all breeds qualify as good pets. Too many  people breed just to breed and if you asked them what quality their dogs have to pass on, they can't even answer past, "they are a great pet! I love them, look how great they are with the kids."

jc.carroll said:   "...Like those "pet-quality" purebred breeders soley devoted to creating "family pets", it just seems like a selfish, self-absorbed reason to breed... and not in the dogs' -- or the breed's -- best interests..."

Well said.