The Beauceron from Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show 08 - Page 7

OK I want to back up a bit.... what I saw in that Beauceron, in that video, and what I recollected from my bigger screen TV the night on Westminster, was the dog appeared fearful. The jerk back and the tail tuck, just did not give me the impression of a confident, dominant dog. More like, you are scary so I might nail you because I cannot get away. So, that is where I am coming from... what did you guys who thought this dog was A-OK see? ??Maybe we can get on the same page or close to it. Because I did not see anyone asking this dog to roll into a submissive position, just stand still and let me look at your teeth and check your balls.

And now GARD, there are women judges out there ya know, I bet you'd stand fine to get checked for them....

 LOLOLOLOL

 Just a bit of insider info here. The woman showing (and the breeder of) Arco is also the breeder of my first Beauceron. I talked to her after the show and she was beyond stunned. Apparently the judge actually caused her dog to yelp during the mouth exam, he never asked if he could examine the teeth (pretty common request, especially in the working/herding breeds) and her dogs mouth was actually bleeding when she got him back around to his place. From what I understand, there were a few complaining handlers in the ring regarding the manhandling, especially when it came to checking the testicles. Apparently the judge was also pretty nervous and his hands were shaking pretty badly, which anyone who has ever dealt with a Beauceron knows this can be a recipe for disaster, at least it was that night. Arco is a very nice dog and has had his mouth and testicles examined countless times and has always stood stock still and didn't really care. I remember when I was watching, thinking, oh crap, did he get stomped on or something?

While she was upset about it, she has been showing long enough to know it was just one of those things and considers it lesson learned. As anyone who has shown at all has experienced, the majority of judges will ask if you want to show the mouth or if you want the judge to examine on his/her own. She was a bit shocked when she heard the dog yelp and realized the judge had started the mouth exam without a word. I think from that moment on, the dog would have preferred no more contact with that guy, but what's done is done.

Annette Holbrook

July,

I did not say you know nothing about working dogs. What I said was you don't have experience with the types of dogs I am talking about. I am not talking about Sch 1 ASS dogs, Gonendals (it's a downright shame what they did to that breed) or even your typical Sch GSD (even many of the working lines.) Go try and handle a KNPV Malinios or Dutch Shepherd and you might understand what I am talking about.

If I tried to debate the conformation of ASS dogs, WGS, or any conformation for that matter. I would look silly. I wouldn't have the slightest idea what I was talking about.

If what BoCron is saying is true, it proves the point I was trying to make. You cannot judge a dog on 15 seconds of video. I think we all agree what we saw was not favorable, I was just giving examples of what types of good dogs may show similar behaviours. You can't compare all breeds to a each other or to a GSD.

As for the nut check--From the female judges I have seen (not that many though) I'll pass thank you very much

Ok Gard..You're right, It's true I have never had a KNPV Malinois or Dutch or beauceron (and don't intend to own one either!) I know they are very strong dogs..but tell me what is the purpose of owning such a strong dog you can't even trust??

Only sport??  Wouldn't it be better if their temperament would be just a little less strong?? What good is it for the breed to have too dominant dog that we breed because they title with big score?? Just asking..

GARD and 4pack...this is a debate we will not win. Someone with no comprehension of what proper GSD temperament is supposed to be is not ever going to understand. It's a futile discussion. Weak people breed weak dogs so they can better handle them. Sorry to be negative, but if you break it down, that's what's happening. Everyone wants a useless couch potato that they don't have to work, exercise, or train, but that will bark and look scary just before it runs away from a threat....if he/she realizes that there's a threat present. The fact that there's even a post about a dog not enjoying this kind of thing at a show is testament to the state of mind society is in concerning our dogs. IMO, that dog probably deserves better than the show ring, and just MAY have some balls...and not necessarily bad temperament. 

Of all the dogs at my house, only one would stand there and allow a stranger to stick something up his butt, and that's my APBT.

July, I am not talking about you in particular.

Just because a dog is tough or domanat doesn't make him unpredicatable. I know my dog and what he will do. He's only 22 months, not so prey driven he will bolt after what he shouldn't. I walk by cats all the time and so far the only one he has chased, is my own. We just kept doing OB at the park yesterday, when a small dog wandered up to say high. The dog just looked curious, not pushy enough to force play and not nervy like allot of the dogs that wander over and then snap at my dog, when he turns his head to sniff them back. I let it be, ignored the dog, told my dog to keep working and focus on me. All turned out fine, it was a nice distraction I used to my bennefit. What my dog has going for himself, is a nice self control. He's so confident he has no need to blow up or be dog aggressive to make his point.

GARD I do agree that it is unfair to totally judge the dog on a 15 sec video, problem is it is done all the time in alot of different venues. I really shouldn't have lowered myself, I just remembered the night watching it on TV and the negative did go thru my mind, so guess I reverted back to my original thought. Wonder what the heck he did to make the dogs mouth bleed?

As for the nut check... I think you would have liked the one judge at the AKC trial in June ! She also judge in breed I think.

I think I also wouldn't want a dog that I feed and care for coming up the leash at me after getting a correction. I realise when a dog gets kicked into drive they don't always "think" the same. I know they have thier place, but just not my cup of tea, I prefer one that accepts me as pack leader and thats that, but also knows who the bad guy is. I sure wish Max was around to ask what he really wanted this breed to evolve to.... we can all speculate but nobody will ever know for sure.

I have not read all the posts in this thread and may not have time to do so. I do want to give an opinion, for what it is worth. I too think it spurious, at best, to judge the temperament of a given dog solely on a video of the dog standing in a ring. I watched the video once, and I saw a dog who appeared, at the very least, to be uncomfortable. Beyond that, I can make no other judgement. I would want to see this dog in person, and I would want to see it in a variety of situations and environments before I labeled it as this or that. If one works with lots of dogs, one learns quickly that just like with people a first glance only gives a little information and that information may or may not prove to be helpful and/or correct in the end. When we make such a quick judgement just from a dog standing in a ring, we are apt to make serious errors in my view. This is different if the dog is truly being challenged and we can assess the response to that challenge.....

As someone who has handled a dog in a Championship ring - my question to that the lady who owns and handles Arco - what was she doing whilst the judge had his hands on her dog??

When handling I watch the judge closely when his/her hands are any where near my dog - let alone touching.

If I felt that the judge had handled the dog inappropriately I would then make comment to the show management - I would not just walk away as it could leave the dog damaged for life!