The Beauceron from Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show 08 - Page 5

I have seen a dog failed in the AKC obedience ring for growling at the judge during the stand for exam.

Yes, and we know "all judges" excuse bad behavior, not just AKC judges.

I understand what you are saying too GARD, but don't you think a dog that has been doing the sameo/sameo, countless times and made it to a championship or say SchH3, should not react that way? Like the judge was going to get him, I mean? He hadn't even made it to his back end to check his balls, yeah, he probably knew it was coming, but it had been done countless times before I am sure. Maybe he reacted the same way every time, dunno, but I doubt he would have made it to a Ch. staus if he had. Judges don't want to get bit, they might (and shouldn't) excuse timid dogs but not a dog they think may bite them.

I think it is the up to the handler of the dog to say "the what" the dog is going to do in the ring, handler is suppose to be in control, not the dog. So if the handler says stand for exam, he should do it, especially after getting Westminster. All dogs can and do have bad days, maybe this was the first time for the Beauceron . The old saying "my dog never did that before" .... but I think on that day the dog showed stress. I also think the temperments in both the GSD & Beauceron standards are similar.

In answer to your question, I think a good GSD, Beauceron, Mal, etc. that have been handled by alot of people, in alot of different settings w/o any bad experiences, should not react to the same exam, at a dog show, that it has undergone many times before. I think they all should show appropriate suspision and aggression when the circumstances require it, such has a display of threat to the handler. I believe in Schutzhund that has been the theory, the dog does not bite or react unless it is provoked (aggitated), I believe a good police K-9 should do the same and take its direction from the handler, not make its own decisions. Maybe when in a car and the LEO is being attacked, similar to a dog doing selective disobedience for leading a blind person.

Well that's fair enough Bl itzen as long as every judge every time starts DQing every dogs that wigs in the ring. Not giving a shit who's handling or what breed. I can't stand to see things handed around differently. Rules are rules.

If only that would happen, Trailrider. AKC rules, SV rules, whatever rules, none are applied equally to all far as I know

Just because a dog does the same routine, does not mean it will react the same way or toward the same person the same way. Beuceron's like someone said, are like Mals in that they can be quirky. Some scenario, some person just rubs them the wrong way. In bitework the prey drive usually overcomes whatever is bothering it. Put the dog in a show ring with someone who gave them a bad vibe manipulating them, you can get some quirks. Not necissarily a big deal.

Now if we are talking about a dominant dog. I don't care how much training they have, they will never be OK with some things. I know dogs that would never allow you to bend over them and cover them with you upper body. Or dog that would never let anyone roll them on their back, not even their handlers. Does this make them bad or nervy dogs?

If you put this kind of dog into a position of conflict, which is exactly what they are in if they are being forced to submit by their handlers or have recieved correction or abuse for this behaviour, you will see avoidance.

I can tell you without question, no matter how much training you give me, I'm not letting some dude give me a reach around and grab my balls.  Ain't gonna happen.

Oh come on, you'd get used to it! Maybe even like it if done correctly. LOL

 just close the light..A hand is A Hand LOL

 Gard, Those dominant dogs you're talking about.They are not nervy or necesserelly bad...But I don't thing they are GOOD dogs.

They maybe good for some kinds of works. I understand that somethings requires  very strong dogs. 

For me a good dog is stable don't show agression with their masters or owners simply because they know there is no danger.  Now if you're talking about dogs that peole buy that have been titles and get them at 6 years old I can understand.But when you have a good bond with you dog..this should not be an issue..

Ah no. My dog never shows aggression towards me. I can stick the thermometer in his butt. He still doesn't like it but he will allow me because I'm mom and what I say goes but he's not having the vet or anyone else do it. My dog is every bit of stable. He accepts just about anything, strangers, kids, weird/loud noises, stange objects. We are talking about a dog that I cold walk right next to a passing train at 4 months old. Not skittish, timmid, or so dominant weird he wont take direction from me, he just doesn't like his body messed with by people he doesn't know. He doesn't seek attention, he will say hi sometimes but quickly moves on doing his own thing, could care less about people but he does like kids more than adults I have noticed. He would probably let a kid poke and prod at him but I don't let kids do that to find out. Sometiems if sombody will ask I will down or sit him and let them pet him a few times and then say OK and move on.

My dogs in the house right now and he will never lay right next to me, unless he is sick(happened once, he had a fever) or unless I ask him to and even  that only lasts so  long. He's quite the independant dog. Not cuddly like pet people want. He is a good dog and the kind of GSD that there needs to be more of.

Hey,  you guys with workinglines don't need to have dogs that stand tall inside a show ring and let the judge poke and prod them. We are no way comparing apples to apples here. What you want to see from a workingline in the ring would get him DQ'd and banned for life at an AKC show. A Beauceron that is bred for the AKC venue should never, ever  do what that dog did at Westminster regardless of its breed.  The behavior of this specific breed and dog would most likely be applauded by most working dog enthusiasts while is considered unacceptable to AKC people.  We just ain't on the same page here. And here we are right back to where we started - acknowledging the wide gap between dogs that are bred to work and dogs that are bred to win in the show ring.

 4pack, I completly agree with you that some dogs wouldn't let every body mess around with his body parts. I had one like that but when I was there he was ok. he was kind of independent to..except for leaving him behind..OOOOHHHH he didn't like that. Wanted to do something all the times..he was crying to loud everytime 5 miles before the schutzhund club.he was a lot to handle but very stable.

He was not raised with children but somehow knew how strong he was.  at that time I had friends showing their dogs in CKC conformation and GSD show people would laugh a little cause he was a  square dog..I didn't mind I didn't have to confront them and tell the how great he was...he was  a star everywhere he went because he was such a fun stable dog with that  shepherd look in his eye.  Once we made a demo (obedience and agility) for Pepsi Cola employees at Christmas. There was 75 kids  after him giving hug and kisses and playing with him. God I have Loved that dog. He has teached me a lot.

So I do understand a dog that won't let a Vet touch him . I don't tink that a dog that bites his owner out of dominance is good.