The Beauceron from Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show 08 - Page 4

Second dog is 4packs GSD. Very, very strong dog. Very stable, but pretty dominant. National level potential. Most GSD people view him as an outstanding representative of the breed. What GSD's should be.

I took him to the vet @ 8 months for his OFA pre-lims. That dog does not do restraint. He resisted; fighting with everything he had, took three of us to restrain him. He screamed when given the shot. Not from fear, but from frustration and uncertainty.

Now say you took either of these dogs and forced them into the show ring. Do you think they may have demonstrated similar behaviour?

I put ZERO stock in the AKC standard for temperment, but for the sake of arguement........

formidable dog with a frank and unwavering expression, he always demands respect wherever he goes.....

If you take a dog with this type of temperment or the temperments of the two dogs I described, and force them into an uncomfortable position, you will see behaviours. Behaviours that may seem unfavorable to the untrained eye. If you have a dog that is naturally suspicious, dominant, and "demands respect" why do you think it would be OK with being restrained, having someone bend over it, look in it's mouth, and lift its tail? Does that make it a bad dog? A nerve-bag? That is rediculous.

The problem in the show ring lies with physical appearance being paramount. People breed dogs for looks and not temperment. You take a dog that may have a little nerve and suspicion and breed it with a real nerve-bag and you get nerve-bags and weaken the breed.

Do you think it is coincidence that Mals and Dutchies rule the police dog world and world level competiton? Or is it  GSD people what "stable" dogs that can kick it on the couch, let people maul it, do not carry suspicion or aggression because that is poor temperment?

 I do understand your point.  I know different breed has different temperament and i am not an expert on Beauceron either. Just had little contact with them.

IF you go to an UKC show and Watch FIla braseleiro...they don't even look at their mouth!!  Is it ok or not?? I'm not into Fila and will never be (as if they are so difficult I find that almost dangerous!).

There is a point I want to make..When a new breed (I know it's not new but for AKC showing) starts to show you usually don't have many dogs entered so your judgement is based on very little sample. beauceron's are not suppose to wagged there tails and great you like a Golden but I don,t think they should stuck their tail under their belly like that either.  2 minutes..that's all the judge has to evaluate structure and temperament so better make the best of those 2 minutes!

What I think is maybe this dog would have need more training (good training) for him to stay its ground and let himself being examine without showing so much anxiety.  Te more you expose the dog to situation..the less he react to it. IMO

Perfectly said, GARD, particularly the last sentence.

 Malinois and Dutch shepherd works more and more in police because they never..never stop!!

And they weight about 50 pounds..much better for police work I might say. They are much more agile than a GSD and yes they are much more nervous too. But it doesn't mean they have a great temperament..That is not what they are looking for..they are looking for stong working ability.

For God sake..they have bloodhound too now..it's not because they have better temperament than gsd..it's because they have more nose!

And all those dogs are suppose to be suspicious...not AFFRAID and ANXIOUS"

Regardless of the breed, ALL dogs exhibited in AKC shows are expected to stand firm and permit the judge to exam him/her without seeming to threaten that judge in any manner. A dog that does otherwise is apt to be excused or, worse, DQ'd if, in the judge's opinion, that dog will bite.  An AKC judge is not expected or required to put him or herself in jeopardy while in the show ring.

 Well said Biltzen.

If you dog can do it properly it has no place in the show ring..

It the same with schutzhund..if your dog go there with his tail like this..I think it has no place on the field

July- where I work they still use GSDs for K9, east german, west german, doesn't matter as long as they can get the job done. They have also used some labs and drahar for scent work.  Have you done or observed much K9 training yourself to claim to know what they are looking for?

Blitz- Yes, they "expected" to act that way, but how many times have you seen a judge ignore such behavior? I know I've seen it. Judges ignoring the rules/standards is really whats severely damaging to both the American and West german dogs.

Explain drastic in what way? Yes I do believe working breeds be it retriever, bloodhounds, GSD's or Huskies should represent their breeds with their attributes, that includes working attributes not looks alone. Many breeds have side notes in the standars about quirks and tendencies for  that breed. We are lucky GSD's are pretty laid back and take direction well from their owners, many breeds don't mold so easily for whatever reasons. I think people forget many dogs were bred for certain traits and they don't all fit into a mold that represents nicey nicey show dog. Soem breeds are easy to show, some are not and take more conditioning.

I wasn't particularly happy to see that Beauc react that way but to say he is a complete nerve bag or danger to society, is not correct either. If he really wanted to bite that judge, he'd be missing part of his hand or face. I gave you an example of a GSD, mine that would react possibly in the same manner, so saying I would judge a GSD differently is hogwash. I don't show my dogs, so there is no real need for him to stand for that kind of hands on stuff and it would actually work against what I am trying to accomplish with him in Personal Protection. If I did show him then sure, I would have been handling him all over daily since he was a pup and having strangers come over to do it as well.

I can't say what that Beauc's training was like, but I wouldn't discount him by this one incident. My dog has been doing super with his OB for months now and he really pissed me off last night at training. So he had an off day! Doesn't mean his OB sucks or I haven't trained him well enough. Probably that I didn't do bitework with him last week and when he stepped on the field, that's what he expected and wanted to do, not focus on me and do boring position changes.

 Ok..Drastic is maybe not the word euhhh..lets say what I meant is that for you the soundness and workability of a dog is very important..(sorry for my lack of vocabulary in english).

I'm not saying because he reacted that he is a danger to society..i think wathever dog you have is no danger with the proper owner..

But he sure showed that he was insecure...not dominant IMO

I've seen dogs get excused for looking at a judge sideways, dogs get DQ'd for snapping at a judge, and I've seen judges ignore distinct threats. It often depends on who the handler is. If it's a pro, judges are much more likely to look the other way than if it's an unknown handler or one who appears to be shaken by the dog's behavior. It's left to the descretion of the judge.

As far as why the Beauceron behaved as he did, it's immaterial, really doesn't matter to me and had I been the judge he'd have been excused.  It's up to the handler to know the dog he is handling and how it is apt to react to a stranger's exam.  We who show at AKC shows prepare our dogs from the time they are able to gait on a lead how to stand steady for the exam. The Beauceron could have had a bad temperament, a lack of proper training, a medicore handler or a bad hair day. Don't care, he still should have got the boot. I hope that judge received a reprimand from AKC for the way he handled it.