A question on color - Page 1

Hi there.

I had a question on color genetics I was hoping to get some feedback on.  I have always admired the GSD, but I am new to breed.  While on my search for a nice puppy, one of the litters I looked at had a few black and tan pups, and a two sable males.  The mother was your standard looking black and tan.  Dad was registered as a bicolor, he was a long-haired red/black, through SV and was imported from germany.  While ive been reading a little about genetics, im a bit confused because I did not think this color was possible from the cross.  Now researching the bloodlines I did find that the father's sire was a sable and there are other sables in the pedigree.  I was hopeing someone could help me out on this.

One parent MUST be sable for the resulting pups to be sable. Is the dam's saddle "weak" in black pigment? The reason I ask is, my sable girl looks like a normal black & red unless you see her up close, or examine the guard hairs along her back (sable guard hairs have a black tip, whereas a black & tan will have solid black guard hairs). I know she is sable because I saw her from birth, but most people think she is a black & red "saddle-mark."  

Lacking the "bi-color" sire's German papers, we could also guess that he is genetically a sable - the undercoat will tell the story, particularly in the area along the shoulders and hindquarters, and under the tail. Years ago I had a "solid black" that produced sables when bred to a black & tan. On the surface he looked solid black, but if I ruffled his fur I could see the grey base of the guard hairs in the areas I mentioned.

http://www.hauspharao.com/breeding/colorgenetics.html

It's kinda like how sometimes people will register GSDs as the uncommon "blk/cream" color when all they are is a very washed out and faded blk/tan. They think they're right, but to an educated person in the breed, we know otherwise.

It sounds possible, like done said, that maybe the dog is figured to be a bi-color when in reality he isn't. I would have to see the dog myself and ruffle his coat to decide 100%, but I'd say the comments made might be on the right track here.

I saw a Kirschental breeding last fall that took place (I'm telling the kennel because it is highly reputable) between a sable male and a black female produce sables and bi-colors; no black!

I have a question about the chart that was posted earlier. I have a general idea of what things mean from bio classes, but here is the question. For example when it says you breed a sable with the phenotype aw+as with a sable with the phenotype aw+aw, the possibilites are 50% you get a sable with the henotype aw+aw, and 50% chance of getting a sable with aw+as. So the question is, I thought that you take one phenotype from each parent. therefore each puppy in that litter would have the phenotype of aw+aw, because both parents are sable. Therefore how can the puppy have an "as" in the phenotype, if both parents are "aw"

Also, under black & tan, it does not say anything about the possibilty of an "aw" in the phenotype. Sables can make blk&tan. I know this may not make much sense, but any help would be awesome, I find this chart really cool, but it would be much cooler if I Had the answer to these questions

There are two "alleles" that comprise the gene, describing the genotype.  Phenotype is the most dominant of the two alleles, and consequently is expressed in the coat pattern, while the "recessive" is hidden.  Genotype of aw+as is a phenotype of sable, but capable of producing offspring with black & tan coats, depending on what bred with.

OK i just picked a dog at random here. this is the dog picked at random

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/470033.html

The parents of this dog have the alleles of aw+a and aw+aw

according to the chart those alleles will only produce sable dogs. Yet this puppy is black. Can someone please try to explain. Sorry, I just want to make as much sense of this as possible.

The sire is a+a, the only possible genotype of a black dog.  Remember the "order of dominance."  The dam is aw+a, a sable dog with a black recessive.  The possible combinations for offspring are aw+a(50%) and a+a(50%).  One allele from the sire, the only one possible being "a", and the recessive "a" from the dam determined the pup's genotype of a+a.

OK sorry, I understand it a bit better now, and this is the last question I have..I think. Where did you get the black recessive gene from the dam, if both of her parents are sable? Again thank you for taking the time to explain this

The maternal side carried the black recessive through Heidi > Tinka > Filou > Mentor > Golf (five generations, finally a black one!).  The sable Nando didn't carry the black recessive, but his sable brother Nestor did.