titles not important? - Page 1

Hey all,

I am new to this site. I don't know how welcomed I will be since I my dog is from American lines. His pedigree has plenty of Champions (conformation, Obedience, Herding,  etc.). I have had dogs from German lines as well as American- German crosses. I love them all. Anyway, I was reading a breeder's site (dobie, not gsd) and he had this in in Q&A section. What do you think? Money/greed? Lazy? or is there some tiny bit of truth or wisdom?

Q. What does all this "hoopla" about Conformation titles, CH. titles and SCH titles really mean ? Does it guarantee I will get a good Doberman and why or why not? Please help me sort this out.

A. It is our opinion that Conformation titles and Obedience titles are somewhat outdated tools that are sometimes used by breeders to try to help them select which animals might produce well when bred to another. In the case of working and obedience titles, which are basically and quite simply just complex pattern training exercises, a marginal candidate can, if trained by and exceptional trainer - exceed all expectations. Illustrating not it's excellent genetic traits, but rather it's trainer's exceptional ability. The reverse is also true, an incredible genetic specimen, which if broken down by a poor trainer would probably be weeded out of a breeding program, by these same inaccurate measuring tools. If you think about it, it's quite obvious, it's just common sense. In most cases these events are demonstrating the trainers ability more than the actual genetic ability of the dog to pass on any fantastic trait.

      At their best they are, in our opinion, simply inaccurate and coarse indicators of possible correct genetics. The real proof is in the actual breeding. The resulting progeny are the only clear accurate measure of the parents abilities to produce excellent quality pups, not some artificial obstacle course that the parents have been repeatedly trained to excel at. I have seen many times, Schutzhund 3 FH bred to Schutzhund 3 FH and the resulting litter had not even one pup that was note worthy. If a dog has titles or not, does not matter to me. It's whether or not that dog produces progeny with exceptional qualities consistently that really matters.  We define our success by the satisfaction of our clients.  We do not train for titles, trophies or awards.  In the real world these items mean absolutely nothing.  A Trophy will never save your life

Oh my!! Sad thing is, so many poor prospective puppy buyers buy that information. Sound Like......."He can sell fire to the devil"

Titles do not affect genetics.  A dog is what it is genetically, no matter what use if any it is put to in life. 

Having said that, however, without a test of what the dog is made of, you cannot know for sure what you are breeding.  Most people, without somehow testing their dogs, cannot know what they have. 

The basic flaw of the above statement is:  "The real proof is in the actual breeding. The resulting progeny are the only clear accurate measure of the parents abilities to produce excellent quality pups, not some artificial obstacle course that the parents have been repeatedly trained to excel at."

The problem is, how do you know these dogs have produced excellent quality pups (who will defend anything), if they are not tested, just as the parents are not tested?

", a marginal candidate can, if trained by and exceptional trainer - exceed all expectations."

Okay, I cannot speak for all Breeder Handler Owner Trainer SchH people (though I think there are many like me!), but I personally have to have an exceptional dog to go anywhere with my marginal abilities!! 

This guy makes it sound like most dogs who are titled and do great are trained by wonderful trainers.  This is not the case.  Most SchH (and otherwise) titled dogs are trained by amatuers who do the best they can.  The world is not full of wonderful trainers!  Yet somehow, we manage to bumble along and still title dogs from our programs. 

Yeah, my breeding stock is out of top SchH sires.  After asking around, I try to buy or breed to the dogs from sires who are more than podium dogs according to those who have been in it for many years.  These guys who know the quirks of the top SchH dogs ARE exceptional trainers, but they know and understand the dogs too. 

Somehow, I doubt this guy has seen "many (GSD) SchH3 sire and SchH3 dam litters" where there was no progeny of note.  For one thing...did he follow these dogs to at least the age of three to see what was done with them? 

So, did he follow the offspring of untilted dog, and see noteworthy puppies who can work? 

Honestly, he sounds like a basic conformation-show man to me.  They tend to talk like this.

Veronica

Like all aspects related to the breed, there are many, many factors that should go into a decision about whether to breed a dog or not. Personally, I believe that Schutzhund is not the end all, be all in such a decision or the most important factor. That being said, when someone does know how to properly evaluate a dog in total, seeing a dog who can and has worked and earned a performance title, be it in Schutzhund, agility or otherwise, does, indeed say a lot about the individual dog and also about the breeder. Should that dog be bred? Who knows......there would be other factors to consider as well. 

I will also say that there are some, and perhaps the breeder from whom you quote above is one, who make excuses as to why they cannot do any training and titling with their dogs. I personally am always a bit suspicious of those who will say that a title is meaningless. Many are puppy mills and we have seen them here many times. However, like all factors, training and titles to show accomplishment are only one part of the puzzle, but they are a part of that puzzle. To suggest otherwise often means someone who is lazy and/or incompetent in the training venue and is not willing to go full circle to cross all the "t"s and dot all the "i"s. Would I buy from this breeder? Probably not, simply because there are likely many, many other breeders who have done all the work to prove breed worthy qualities exist in their breeding stock. If someone talks a good line about the bloodlines but has never done squat with their own dogs except to breed them over and over, as we see here weekly, then I know what they are breeding for....one thing: MONEY.

Titles/ratings do not make the dogs. HOWEVER, "breeders" who call them pointless/useless/outdated are just spouting off a feeble excuse to not be involved in the breed. Being involved in a breed is expensive, and well, we can't have that cut into precious puppy profits, now can we?

 Excellent posts Veronica and KCzaja and right on the money....

It's smoke and mirrors and can be proven so with the statements in the second paragraph:

"The real proof is in the actual breeding. The resulting progeny are the only clear accurate measure of the parents abilities to produce excellent quality pups, not some artificial obstacle course that the parents have been repeatedly trained to excel at. I have seen many times, Schutzhund 3 FH bred to Schutzhund 3 FH and the resulting litter had not even one pup that was note worthy."

The question now is, what measuring stick is used to determine the quality of the pups??

Now, I have never bred any dogs nor do I intend to. I have never competed in the ring or field, yet I really want to get my current dog obedience titled. I will start with rally and hope to someday achieve CD or CDX.  I have yet to have had a GSD that is not protective or loyal. I guess what I was wondering was this. I have had dogs that were couragous, strong willed yet stubborn, etc. and I have had dogs that are just as couragous and loyal and protective that have that really strong desire to please. Of course, Males are usually the more "independent thinkers" type, but not always. However, what about dogs that have been zapped by an e-collar into doing what in some dogs comes naturally? The ones that have been "broken" into performing, are they ones that should be bred because they are titled?

Anyone with a decent eye for dogs can tell the difference between a dog has been unfairly treated to be forced to work and a dog that truly has a bond and a working partnership with its handler. You can create a great work ethic in a "stubborn" or "independent" dog with good training, just like you ruin a dog thats a natural by blasting it to get your way.  Its quite obvious by the manner in which the dog works.

Now, when you look at a poorly performing dog its often hard to tell whether the dog is a result of bad training or weak genetics.  So when it comes to buying a pup or using a stud, I'd rather not take that chance on either unless I can really read something in the dog that leads me to firmly beleive it's a training issue. Likewise, while a trainer can make a softer dog look better than it is, but in my opinion an experienced eye can see through it.