Improving the breed? - Page 1

i know this subject has come up before and will again.  as 4pack stated the freshmen have entered the high school.

so lets look at this subject.

to say that you want to improve the breed means that you think there is something wrong (either in structure, conformation, working ability, health, tempernment, etc)  and  you have the ability with your breeding program to fix said fault.

or do you think that the dog is too small and you want to make it larger?  have longer hair?  maybe its the wrong color?

i guess what im getting at is if you are going to say you want to improve the breed than PLEASE tell us how you are going to improve it.

in my eyes,  if you want to IMPROVE  the breed,  then learn as much as you can first, and dont breed your dogs simply because you have a male and female and they "ARE THE GREATEST DOGS I EVER HAD"

john

 Oh, what the heck.  I'll bite.

Every time you or anyone else breeds a litter, you will be fighting the drag of the breed, or the tendency of dogs to trend toward mediocrity, unless extreme care is used to select outstanding stock.  Here is a quote from a German Shorthair website:

"Every breeder is fighting "the drag of the breed," which is the tendency for all animals to breed back toward mediocrity. Unsuccessful breeders overlook an animal that has a great trait because it also has a minor fault in favor of an animal that has no faults but no great traits.  Successful breeders use specimens within their line that have at least one truly great trait and breed them with specimens that in turn are great where the other dog is weak.  In so doing it is possible to linebreed offspring that are better than both the sire and the dame.  The resulting specimens in turn can pass the great traits on to the next generation, unlike the F1 hybrid animal that results from outcrossing to get the same traits."

I think, John, when a serious breeder makes the statement he's breeding to improve the breed, he means he is breeding for puppies that will be well above the average, or the run of the mill pet quality, low drive, somewhat soft in temperament shepherd.

I'm not sure what the clueless mean when they state they're going to improve a given breed of dog.  Look at how many well meaning souls take 2 established breeds, cross them for one generation, and declare they've come up with Super Pet.

Micky

Improve a breed? That is quite an undertaking indeed.

I like the book "How to breed Dogs" by Dr. Leon F Whitney, who was one of the great scientific canine breeders of the 20th century. Another good one by Whitney circa 1926 was "The Basis of Breeding", which I also have. This is a work on a broader plane of the proper principles of breeding a variety of different of animals; including humans, with some of Whitney's insights as a prominent eugenicist of that day.

Dr. Whitney was not a GSD breeder persay, but he was a dog man par excellance. His linebred White Isle strain of working Bloodhounds were second to none. Dr. Whitney was a breeder of many breeds, primarily Bloodhounds, but also a notable Cocker Spaniel breeder in his day. He bred some Airedales, Foxhounds, Setters and many other types of dogs. He also bred a lot of crosses to establish whether a host of traits were either dominant or recessive in nature. Much of what he wrote is over the head of most dogmen (myself included). However, with concentrated effort and repeated study, one can begin to understand much of the great principles taught by this master breeder. One will walk away from reading Dr. Whitney's material with the sense that there is much more to breeding than simply sticking a good dog to a good bitch, with no regard for compatibility of traits or bloodline.

SSDD.

Your right, it has come up before and it will come up again.

If you wanted to improve the breed you would have to improve everyone's bloodline's world wide.

You may make improvement's in your particular stock, but thats not really doing anything for the breed itself is it.

And don't forget about the total dog, not just the trait's you are particularly interested in.

To each his own is the reality.

SSDD.

John-  I think again it goes back to different people interpreting "improving the breed" differently, as I've talked to so many people (some not altogether there) lol  but none the less each "breeder" has a different goal in mind.  Some will say "I'm breeding police k9 prospects, SAR prospects", others will say "I'm trying to breed top quality high level competition dogs" and I even get those that say "I want to breed stable pets".  Most times you see an ad that catches your eye that makes you look to see if in fact this particular breeding is as spectacular as the breeder advertises and when you read the pedigree you leave the page scratching your head wondering what was so "spectacular" about it that would consitute "improving the breed". 

No one seems to elaborate on what they feel is wrong with the dogs already here or have been bred to do all these "jobs"??  Are people saying the police dogs are substandard?  Is the "Pet" sitting in most living rooms a whimp, nerve bag, or a health catastrophy waiting to happen??  Are these people implying the "sport dogs" being seen at many clubs just the average dog?  It's not just with GSD breeders but across the board with all breeds.

IMO I'd like to see breeders with the mind set that they want to "improve the breed" by breeding strong serious working dogs that have rock solid nerves, temperment you can take off the street from a hard days work and put them in a home to be loving trusting companions.  Along with that I'd hope these same dogs would be healthy and be free from hip/elbow problems.  I'd like to see more thinking along the lines of breeding less litters but with higher quality rather than trying to produce higher volume in order to see a larger profit or just passing off what they have to anyone that's willing to buy knowing damn well that the dog they are selling isn't what that person wants or is capeable of what the buyer needs the dog for.  See a lot of that going on lately too, unfortunately.

i understand what you have said.  i guess my dissapointment is that with all of the people who say they are improving the breed, then by now we should all have superdogs.  i would like to know the website that you quoted.  i would like to read the whole article.  some of the things written are the same as what i believe and am trying to accomplish.

about linebreeding

has anyone ever looked at some of the "great'  working dogs of the past and looked at their linebreeding?

Asko von der Lutter  - none in 5 generations

SG Pike von der Schafbachmühle - none in 5

Crok vom Erlenbusch - none in 5

Yoschy von der Döllenwiese- none in 5

Aly vom Vordersteinwald- none in 5

just a few that came to mind, gives you something to think about.

john

I didn't know Leon Whitney dabbled in eugenics, although it's not that surprising.  I thought Kyle Onstott had that claim to fame wrapped up.  I looked up "The New Art of Breeding Better Dogs" and found a few copies available from Amazon.  Didn't look to see if old Kyle's movie was available or not  

maybe instead of "improving" the breed, breeders should just endeavor to breed to the standard. mother nature is gonna toss in the "oddballs" no matter what.  i read (on this board) about puppies from really good breedings coming out with hd or longcoat (altho that will be ok again next year?), or easty-westy or nervy or whatever. and these can be from well thought out breedings. angus is from some big german showlines (i know some have some high zw ratings), but he is way big! and easty westy and a longcoat. i don't care cuz i am a PET owner, but he has a fairly decent pedigree. if i was into schutzund or showing i might be unhappy, but, we wouldn't trade him for the best working or show dog :) he is neutered, but  he would be anyway. i am not gonna breed ever and i don't trust that i could always be on top of things to prevent an unwanted breeding. i will happily leave that to those of you who are good at it (and unfortunately, those of you who are really crappy at it). but, i will say again, why not just try to breed to the standard instead of some lofty and arguable "betterment" of the gsd?

You made my point, to each his own.

The kind of control it would take to (improve the breed ) doesn't exsist.

 The quote about the drag of the breed came from this link:

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

It's very interesting to see how many prominent working dogs in your list above are outcrosses, yet they had no problem reproducing their abilities in their progeny.