Use of E-Collars - Positive Training??? - Page 1

Ok, I had a guy contact me today regarding a Bloodhound I have available for adoption. He says he has a Coonhound (I later found he purchased from a Petstore) that he plays tracking games and will let him hunt for Rabbits. When I decided (for many reasons) he was not going to be suitable to adopt this dog he responded very upset and thinking I wouldn't place the dog with him because he uses E-collars (not the reason) and he went on to say that he strains the Fred Hansan (sit means sit) methods and that the use of the E-collar is POSITIVE Training. Now I do not consider them abusive but I do think they would be far from considered Positive Training. Am I wrong??? 

Here is the portion of the e-mail which he speaks of it:

" The training used with Fred Hansen’s sit means sit methods are positive re-enforcement using the least amount of stimulation (voltage) required for the dog to feel the nick let alone feel any pain or strong stimulation, the collars used in this type of training (I use Dogtra brands) have varying levels of stimulation from 0 to 127 to help find the lowest working level for your dog, mine is set at 7 most of the time.  Not all trainers that offer e-collar training have the same positive re-enforcement training I use, some use a method called escape and avoidance which is more effective and quicker to get results but is really a type of positive punishment training (applying constant stimulation, giving the dog a command, removing the stimulation when it does the proper behavior) and that would be hard for a coonhound (or bloodhound apparently, I haven’t read anywhere that says they’re an overly sensitive breed like my coonhound)."

What is everyone's opinion (and please understand I am not against the use of collars for the right situations)?

Tina

P.S. I was trying to explain the breed (Bloodhound) can be sensative and the daily use of an E-collar just so he can run free to play may not be considered optimal for this breed from my experience which is why he went off on a tangents and was saying I had no right to refuse his home as a placement and to incinuate he was a bad person for using E-collars (which I was not doing).

Coonhounds do not hunt rabbits.

The guy sound's like someone I would avoid.

Any kind of shocking device  can be a powerful tool , and can also ruin a good dog if not used correctly.

I'd love a Bloodhound !   But I have too many dogs already.

You have the right to choose whomever you please.

Hi Two Moons-

  He has a Tree Walker Coonhound and he says he lets his Coonhound hunt Rabbits/Critters for fun. Here's his original e-mail to me:

"What type of training does mojo have?  I have a 16 month old male walker coonhound, neutered and likes other dogs more than me so I’ve decided to get a 2^nd dog and I’m looking for a bloodhound, from what I know and have researched on the breed the energy level / stamina and hunting / tracking abilities are a good match for my lifestyle and my current dog.  My coonhound is trained with an electronic collar (www.sitmeanssit.com type training) and is off leash wherever we are that permits it, this is something I want in the new dog I’m looking for and will train with an e-collar if needed.  I spend 1 1/2 to 3 hours a day hiking logging roads / atv trails with my coonhound, he usually catches a scent or two and scares up a rabbit, bird or some other critter, I let him run the scent trail until I can’t hear him barking anymore (as long as I know the area) and then he gets recalled, between his e-collar training and a good whistle for him to hear where I am, he returns every time.  That is something I will be training to my next dog, do you think Mojo would be a good fit for this or would it conflict with his existing training?

I am considering an adult bloodhound for adoption as I’ve read that bloodhound puppies should not be run overtired until they are over a year old to allow their bones to grow properly, that is the only part of the breed that does not fit my lifestyle."

Tina

Sounds like you made a very wise choice. 

Tina,

He's not a coon hunter thats for sure.   And he's not just out having fun romping through the woods or he wouldn't need a shock collar.

Walker's are medium sized and sometime's used for coyote but never rabbits.   A bloodhound is a natural tracker, thats what they are bred for, and a good one is like gold. 

I don't think he would have the skills needed to properly train a bloodhound and I am always leary of people using e-collars.

You have every right to refuse anyone for any reason.   I wouldn't worry about it.    His e-mail show's a lack of knowledge.

Also the two breeds in this situation would probably not get along well at all.  I wouldn't do it either.

Brent.

I hope you find him a good home...long term.I would love to adopt him but I can't.I wish I knew the police officers name that I met in the parking lot of the Walmart I work at. Foley, AL PD.He was gently trying to catch a dog that had been wandering for quite some while.So here I am sitting on the ground helping him.Then he said..if we catch her..They are going to put her down.The "bird dog" was as healthy as a horse.She had become a nu-sense(sp) and someone reported this lost pet..save her!!! Needless to say they have no idea what happens in the after math.The cop looked at me and I looked at him and we both agreed to just let her be.We got to talking about dogs and he shared that he had just moved to this area from wisconsin....Went on to say that his best partner was a blood hound.Lived to be an old age.I sure wish I had that officers name.You might try to contact the Foley PD...Good Luck.If you need money to feed him until you can place him let me know.

Thanks All. I was confident I had made the right decision, especially after his angry reply telling me I should learn about all the different training methods out ther before passing judgement (again, he didn't understand why my decision was as it was).

Rainhaus - thanks for your offer. This guy is safe and content here.

Bloodhounds are my second favorite breed, simply the polar opposite as a GSD. :o)  They make training much more interesting!!

Tina

I do use e-collars when needed, but I sure don't pretend that they're positive training. They aren't. (As an aside, the beeper or page/vibration functions on some e-collars can be used to signal a reward, just as a clicker can, and this would, of course, be positive training.) There is nothing positive about the "sit means sit" training methods of Fred Hassen. This statement from his website sums it up: "this training system that I’ve come up with is a train that is not going to stop… either get on, or get run over."

Perhaps he has confused the term positive punishment (no sit=correction)??  Sounds like a mute point: you made a (good) judgement call long before you got to the e-collar discussion.  Seems people like this provide many many reasons to decline them as owners.

absolutuly they can be used in a positive ,we use the dogtra pager collar and use the pager as a physical cue and link the nick with food .its not a ''shock'' a shock is something unexpected that you cannot control , we use it on puppies as young as 4 mon   we are using a sound box in some of the videos the collar really doesn't make a sound its just for demonstration    http://www.youtube.com/user/panzertoo