Adjusting Your Dog To The E-Collar? - Page 1

I recently bought an e-collar, and haven't used it yet. My boy is headstrong, and has trouble outing and heeling. I've used the pinch his whole life. But, now that we're getting serious about his titles, he needs this to refine his work.

But I'm apprehensive he may not know what it is. Did you need to "quarantine" your dog with the e-collar, or just jump right in and use it? I only need it for protection and for some pieces obedience that takes him away from me. I do have common sense with it. Is that all I need? Or is there an "art" pertaining to the e-collar?

Thank you,

Emily.

 There are much better ways to train both the out and heeling. If you have used a pinch collar correctly, it should be enough. I suggest you get someone to help you who has a lot of experience. I am not anti-e collar, but the fact is that too many people use them incorrectly and for the wrong things. Once the dog won't do what you want using a e-collar, then what? Also, consider this: the e-collar could further mess your dog up so it does not do what it is now doing and he looses spirit. One does not simply put on an e-collar and shock the dog and get what one is looking for. Again, I strongly suggest you get some help first to see if there are other methods and, if the e-collar is to be used, that you learn first to use it properly. 

Common sense is one thing, knowing how and when and at what level to use it requires training for you. For what it is worth, I have found it rarely necessary to use an e-collar.

Good luck.

Thanks for the advice. I can see your point. It's just during protection, he is WAY too focused on the helper. I am just barely containing him with the pinch as it is. I do manipulate it correctly, so he understands what I want. It just isn't enough for him. He forges, always twisting around me. The barking has gotten under control. The progress is just going very slowly for me. Believe me, I am not one to pump it up all the way and shock the sh** out of him. Just a quick, mild reminder to let him know what's going on.

I'll definitely talk to people who have more experience with it than I do, before using it. Thank you. :)

-Emily.

 Emily,

The dog SHOULD be focused on the helper, but he must also out. There are a lot of ways to teach the out. Trying to teach an out too soon, especially if he really is into the bitework, can result in real conflict. If you do not handle it correctly, you end up destroying his focus on the helper and he becomes too worried about you. And remember, you cannot use an e-collar in a trial or even near trial grounds. Then what would you do?

So you find another way, when he is NOT so high in drive or so focused and work on the out separately.  In fact, your using the e-collar MAY just put him higher. 

Requiring him to heel correctly for a reward, such as a bite or a tug or a ball, can also work to your advantage. And there are other ways too. I am not suggesting you are shocking the Sh** out of him, but I am suggesting now especially that if you are ALREADY using an e-collar or will use one when he does not know what is correct behavior, it will likely not help you. You have a training problem here that requires someone who is more experienced to help you. The e-collar should be the absolute LAST option for most dogs.

Are you in a club? Is there a good helper there? Are there other clubs and other helpers around? It might be worth while to do a little driving even to find some different opinions and get some help. How old is the dog? How long have you been training him? How long have you been involved in Schutzhund? How many really good helpers have you worked with? A good helper should know some methods to deal with this problem. 

i talked to several people and watched many use an e-collar before i used one.  (also an out problem)

my dog knows what corrections are.  the way i got her use to it was to find the lowest setting she would respond to.  then when we are training i would give her a collar correction and at the same time use the electric.  this way she feels both corrections at the same time.  a couple of sessions later and it was all electric.  basically teaching her that the "new" feeling on her neck was a correction.

i know this sounds really simple, but i  would also advise about finding someone who has knowledge with electric to help

john

The e-collar is but anther tool, not the final solution.  The e-collar is good for shaping and long distance corrections.  Aus is Aus, be it a toy or the sleeve.  I do not know your helper or TD, just making a general comment that is very common.  If the helper does not lock up good and tight, the dog is rewarded with the slight tug of war that is going on for the sleeve and is satisfied to hold on.  If you are strong enough, while the decoy is locked up, walk up next to the dog and lift up on the line and hold it.  This becomes very uncomfortable for the dog and they will out.

When it comes to protection we let the dog do its thing then work backwards once we know there are no grip issues and the dog enjoys the work.  When it comes to protection obedience many strong dogs give us the middle finger when we give them a command other than pachen.  We have had much success with protection obedience, which includes whining and barking.  You on the field with dog and helper, patience is key.  Have the decoy stand still and you do fuss around the decoy from a distance of about 15 feet.  When the dog is performing as you wish, send him for a grip.  Let him hold the sleeve for a second then start over.  The beginning of this program actually begins with the dog in basic position and looking at you.  When he is looking at you for a few seconds send him for a grip , not sit and bark.  Lengthen the time your dog looks at you then progress to a couple of good fuss paces then build.

The e-collar is not going to help if the dog does not understand what is expected of them.  Like someone said you can screw a dog up with ill timed or too strong e-corrections.  Remember compultion should only be used for willful disobedience of a known command.  Alss rmember we are supposed to be having fun.

Regards,

Kyle

He is not too young, and believe me, this will in no way have him lose his focus on the helper. I know he is supposed to be focused, but he is so focused it's like i'm not there, but a thin trail holding him back from the helper that may break at any moment. I'm almost positive there is no training problem, and it's a mere means of practicing with enough compulsion to let him know that my word is law, while still letting him retain his intensity towards the bite.

I have not yet used the e-collar, i'm going to go to training and ask more about it before I use it. During basic obedience with no helper on the field, he is calm, with good position, excellent focus, and listens well, because there is not that distraction. I will not use the e-collar during plain obedience, it is not needed. He has gotten his BH, and he knows what the out is. I just need to let him know that what I say is not a suggestion, but a command. I only have troubles with him on the protection field, otherwise, he's attentive and willing to please.

To answer your questions, the dog will be 3 this november, has earned his BH and AD. I am in two clubs a week, training 3 days. I've worked him since I got him, probably since he was two months. Getting this dog started me in the sport. He has worked with a few good helpers, no "high end professionals", but they know what they're doing. Despite my short time in the sport, I am much more knowledgeable than one would suspect. I know my stuff.

John, that sounds like a simple, but easy way to acclimate them to the pressure. Otherwise, I think he'd just look around going "What the HECK was that?!" Once I know more about this, I will try this technique out. Thanks!

-Emily.

Kyle, thanks for the well aimed advice. He is a very fanatical dog when it comes to protection, and is more than ready to ignore me to bark or snip at the helper. We are mainly having problems when he comes into the blind, he is starting to get a little courageous and take a quick bite on the sleeve before starting his bark and hold. That is the main need for the e-collar. I can handle his out with a pinch. But when I am too far to correct him when he snaps at the sleeve before he is allowed, that's when I need the quick shock, just to remind him that he is not allowed to bite yet. I merely need this to enforce my word when I am too far to use the pinch.

-Emily.

Emily,

from what i have seen that is where most people will mess up, by not allowing the dog to understand that it is a correction.

also, never, never, lose your temper.  i have personally witnessed more than one person mess a dog up by "frying" them when they dont respond.

  proper adjustment of a collar on the dogs neck is critical.   people will have the collar too loose and think it is not working, so they turn it up.  all of the sudden it makes contact and freaks the dog out.

to me the goal is to be able to use the lowest amount of compulsion (e collar, pinch, fur saver, whatever) and have the dog respond.

john

What I learned from a good trainer about a pincher collar is this.It is only an aid.The prongs should be of the correct depth for the coat of the dog.The collar should fit niceley///correctly.It should be used as a check in training...not used as an off.If you use it as a check with good hands..Then next time turn the collar over.Condition.But also use other conditioning methods.When one of my GSD's was evaluated..private session.He passed with flying colors.But I learned from the trainer that a harness should have been used intitially in his training.Im not one for electric collars nor Pinchers as I feel they are misused without education.Good advice Hodie and Kyle.