Bummer. K-9 Super Fuel/ - Page 1

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Wow! I'm really surprised at this. I haven't used it but have heard it praised time and again.

Thanks for the information.

I questioned the manufacturer myself and this was their reply.

"Menadione used in small amounts is generally quite safe. We use far below amounts used in studies: There is .00003 milligrams in each serving.  This is an extremely low amount."

Let me start this post by saying that personally do not believe in supplements for humans or dogs unless there is a proven medical need. The supplement industry in this country is a joke and so many people believe all the crap bandied about that it is really ludicrous. In fact, few supplements are of any real value except to the people making the money from people being silly enough to buy them. The difference between supplements and drugs is very slim and revolves more about regulatory issues than anything else. Specifically, the facts about Vitamin K3 are so distorted it is not funny. Someone, long ago, extrapolated the fact that Vitamin K3 was banned in human supplements. It was banned because of a specific problem seen in infants with a specific medical condition and because this synthetic compound is metabolized differently than other forms of Vitamin K and MAY create toxicity at high dose.

K3 supplementation in all kinds of animals has been used for many, many years without adverse effect.  Vitamin K active substances (VKAS) are not banned but must be marketed under provisions of the food additive regulations found in the Code of Federal Regulations. The VKAS issue was originally, in large part, about the environmental fate of such food additives. They are used routinely in chicken and swine feeds specifically because of how these species metabolize vitamin K and because there is a documented dietary need.  In dogs and cats, no daily recommended amount has been set but almost all dog and cat foods and many, many supplements have some form or other of the VKAS. The amounts used are extremely minute. Whether a given animal really needs vitamin K supplementation is a fair question, but since so many give all kinds of unproven and unnecessary supplements, what does it matter?

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It is NOT toxic in the amounts seen in animal feeds and supplements. The crap you read on web site after web site is just that. Someone extrapolated information years ago. Others have no background or interest in knowing what the real issues are/were, and others simply like to say the sky is falling. Recently here on this site a poster warned vitamin K (although she did not know the difference between any of the forms) was a poison to dogs. It is not.  Likely, most healthy dogs and cats fed balanced diets do not need extra vitamin K. Nor do they need products like what you have been giving. But the important thing is not to go off the deep end and think you have been poisoning your dog. The internet hype about their being banned by the FDA is taken completely out of context. Someone could not read the Federal Register, the Code of Federal Regulations or the assessment document on VKAS and suddenly everything is out of context and all perspective is lost..

In general, vitamin K toxicity, in humans or in dogs is extremely rare. There are three forms of the compound and the issue with the K3 form is that it is metabolized differently than the others.  The other two forms of vitamin K are not really usabie in animal feeds because of the expense, the chemical instability and lipophilic characteristics of phylloquinone and the menaquinones. Also, menadione has a short half-life in animal feeds. Therefore, several water soluble forms of menadione are the predominant sources found in animal feed and supplementation (these include MSB, MSBC and MPB). In unhealthy people and some babies and people with a specific metabolic pathway deficiency, toxicity can result, but this too is rarely seen.

As Paracelsus said hundreds of years ago *(paraphrasing): All things are poisonous. It is the dose that differentiates a poison from a remedy. Without vitamin K, animals and humans would have a lot of very serious health issues, including an inability for blood to clot. I don't care whether someone chooses to feed something with this or that compound or not. It is up to you to decide what to feed or not to feed. But I do care that incorrect information is rife on the internet and people simply read a post or web site promoting something and then believe it all.  

In short, I would not loose sleep over this and if you choose, use the rest of your expensive stuff.......that really does nothing at all......

I have posted many times on this chemical for months....I was the first one to bring this chemical up with the dog food Exceed from Sams...I posted the research and the FDA results, not fit for humans but they put it in our dog foods..Many dog foods have , since removed it and it is not in all of the better brands....

You cannot continue to feed every day of a dogs life , chemicals in these dog foods , that there are many questions about...

One of the members of a Houston Schutzhund group paid out of his pocket over 20.00 for the report in its entirety to give to all the members and it has been passed around for two years...I cannot recopy it as it is 40 pages long...

Do your research and may up your minds for your self...I  will not buy any food with menadione in it...We ingest and so do our animals way too many toxins and the liver is the organ that suffers...it wont show up till your pet is 4 or 5  or 6...Why gamble  ..Plenty of dog foods and herbs and real food grown without toxic waste added to it, to not make the right choice...

You add one more , and one more  and one more and we wonder why german shepherds have such reactions and get sick and the vets cannot even find out what is causing it...

Look in the label of what your feeding....I take the high road.,..others may not choose to be so pickey..

Let's see the "real research" you found YR and the "FDA results" suggesting this is "not fit for humans". That is baloney. If you don't want to feed something, fine, don't but at least learn something first. You have no clue, as usual, about what you are talking about here. This vitamin is not toxic waste....in any formulation. 

And you might want to look carefully at how many foods, including premium foods and yes many of their dog supplements fed by many who frequent this board, have VKAS in them, in minute (that means incredibly small) amounts. Please explain to us how vitamin K is metabolized in the body.

Do yourself a favor. At the very least, go take some basic science courses. Learn what the difference is between a drug and a synthetic and a natural compound is. Learn a little about toxicology. If you want to go off the deep end on stuff, ok, but at least let's be honest that you don't have a clue about what you talk about here other than reading some crap someone wrote who also had no sense or ability to distinguish fact from fiction.

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I didnt say Vit K menadione was a toxic waste.. In my later sentence I said feed real food grown without toxic waste in it...not even talking about Vit K...Toxic waste is food grown in fields where water run offs go and fertilizers used that contain many chemicals we dont need in our bodies,  fertilizers used from chicken farms and chickens raised by companies that force feed chemicals to heighten the growth rate, and hormones that invade all food areas..That is toxins to our body...

I will leave the teaching to you since you are so brazen to criticize every living person who posts on this base...

Have at it  ,,,I have other things to do .  And I dont have to be told to go get a PHD to post on the database..Maybe you should live in a glass house...

'You throw stones at everyone on here   ...Go ahead and throw all you want and try to humilate me all you want...It doesnt make me less  knowledgeable and Im sure Richogsd didnt want a certified copy of my reasonings...If he did ,  he certainly wouldn 't have posted here.

The report said in plain words that a three year old could read...I dont have it  its back on the database last  year and it is a research paper  in its entirely . AND FDA  did not approve it for human consumption...and dogs dont need it in their diet..

Someone surely has a copy of the report I posted..I sent it to three people on this database in its entirety and I deleted it because of the size...It doesnt matter , the poster posted enough of  his findings to make no argument about it...

Your the PHD person so be it...I wont argue with you...go find someone else to call stupid...Your good at it....

IF ANYONE HAS THE REPORT I POSTED LAST YEAR   SEND IT TO  HER OR POST IT...