Choosing a Sch puppy prospect - Page 1

What drives do you look for when looking at a litter and what is the best age to choose for a possible sch prospect.

HELLO,

How about a little help here.

Just because I am a novice when it comes to schutzhund does not mean I have no experience in obedience.

I do have a person who can help me choose if I need them but I would atleast like to try for myself first and then ask for their opinion.

There should be more information out there for people who are newcomers to Sch. and are looking for a first dog. I am also a newcomer to the sport and I searched and searched for good information on my own while I was selecting my first dog. These are things that I have learned over the last year and they are by no means a complete guide. I hope this helps you out in your search.

Do your research and dont let your heart take over and dont get impatient in selecting a dog. Start with learning about and researching pedigrees. Pedigrees do not guarantee that you will have a good prospect puppy. but they do increase the probablity of success. Have you decided on showlines or working lines? You should make that decision before you begin I think.

Before you begin selection, make sure you are purchasing out of proven titled parents with good hip and elbow ratings. If the breeder has not invested in this, then move on to the next one.

The breeder should be willing to let you watch mom and dad work (assuming both are on property -in many cases they wont both be there, but still you would watch at least one parent work.

You should ask the breeder what steps they have taken in the early days of the pups lives to condition and imprint the dogs for work. You shoudl also ask what they were hoping to produce in choosing to breed this litter. If you get evasive answers...walk away!

Visiting Schutzhund clubs in your area prior to selecting a puppy is a great idea, but you should be aware that there will be breeders attending these clubs who will be trying to make a sale from you. This is a nice way to meet more people and possibly find a nice pup, but you shoudl still treat their litter the same as any other prospect and judge them by the same criteria.

I like to see a puppy that is interested in people and wants to play without restraint. A happy working puppy is like a whirwind of enegy and lives to play. Beware of puppies who are stand-offish or nervous. A good prospect will be like a little tornado of fun. As far as drives, I just like to see a  load of prey drive in a puppy. they would want to play and play and play.  They are not mentally ready by any means to be put into a defensive position. If someone pressures a pup into defense- dont walk away...run.

There are top notch people out there who offer selection and testing services. It may not be a bad idea to invest in the services of a proven Sch. competitor to help you select the dog you want. I would imagine that you will learn information that will last you and serve you well throughout your Sch. Career. Here is a clip of a very nice prospect puppy being tested by a friend of mine. Karoly Meszaros- unfortunately this fine male was sold this week, but it gives you an idea of what to look for:

http://www.aceofnike.com/mov/prospectpup.htm

http://www.malinut.com/ref/write/paws/

http://www.workingdogs.com/testing_volhard.htm

the volhard test is the best one imo

Hello tigermouse,

Thank you for your response, the volhard test is most usefull.

My main reason for asking the question is that I have a litter of puppies here that are 6 weeks old, they are from very good lines and yes they are from a long line of hip & elbow x-rayed dogs.

They are showline but they linebred on Tacko von der Felsen-Grotte schH3 FH 4/4 & other lines are Hammer vd Waterkant SchH1 & Triumps Gucci.

I seem to be getting a bit long winded here but I do have a puppy buyer that wants to do schutzhund and he really want to buy a pup from this litter as he loves the lines, I have done obedience but not sch. This buyer wants me to choose his pup for him as he lives interstate, a 14 hour drive away. From our convesations he said he trusts me and I don't want to let him down.

The puppies are  very out going and some are already showing good drives, they love to play tug, chase balls and stalk each other but is this enough ?

I know that there are lots of people out there that could help me out here, is it just because I am a novice.?

The only way that people like me can go forward is through people such as you that have the knowledge. Yes you can help if you want to.

Nine  years ago I set out to buy the best showline GSD that I could and very few people would listen and take me seriously,  I knew then that  it was not going to be an easy task  but I did eventually find a breeder that was willing to help me with my goals and here I am wanting to learn something new and where is the help ? 

Jehnanum I really wish that there was more information available  for people such as us but the sad tale is that many breeders are not willing to help.

I think the posts above are helpful to a limited extent. But, they are not particularly helpful in choosing a dog who has what it takes to do SchH. It is not a simply thing to tell one what to look for, but, as a start, one should look for a pup with a lot of energy, spirit and a desire to be with people. I look for pups that are confident, but age can come into play here to make this a little unreliable. I especially look for a dog who has a strong interest in moving objects (prey drive), and already possesses a very strong retrieve drive, even if they do not naturally bring the object directly back to me. Without a strong retrieve drive in a dog, it is difficult to train a dog for Schutzhund without using a lot of compulsion.

I also think it is wise to find someone who is long involved in the sport, has titled several dogs and who can help you. The bottom line is that even giving you information about drives to look for in a pup is likely not to help because new people generally do not understand drives or how to evaluate dogs and pups.

I personally do not put much stock in tests....I look at pups with my own experience as a guide to knowing which pups are likely to be what when they grow up.

If you want to email me privately, we can discuss more and perhaps I can help you, or help you find someone who can go with you. The most important thing is to understand that in a large measure, assuming you choose a healthy, happy, active pup, that YOU will be a big part of whether you are successful with the pup. It takes dedication and SchH is a long haul to success for a newbie.

Good luck.

Dude,

Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you should do one of two things. 

1.  Have a local Schutzhund club evaluate your pups and ask for complete honesty.  Do you really want to waste this guys 14 hr ride on your lack of knowledge?  I am not trying to criticize you, but you have said yourself that you have no knowledge of what is required for the sport.  The pups are from showlines.  This is a plus and a minus in your case.  The plus is that the buyer is looking for a showdog.  The minus is that most Showlines do not excel in the sport.  To prove this point look at Ivan.  He is arguably one of the best trainers in the world, but every dog has a ceiling.  You are not versed in the sport and cannot effectively give this man what he wants to hear.  Like I said, seek a club out to do an evaluation.

2.  Point the man in another direction.  I understand that he wants a showline to do the sport.  If this is the case, maybe he should be looking for a breeder that has a history in the sport and produces dogs for the sport.  I am not trying to impune your program or your dogs.  For all I know you could have the next Universal Seiger.  All I am saying is that you sound like an honest person that wants to give this guy what he is asking.

Good luck to you both!

You are joking right??

It is hard enough to evaluate propects from a litter of working line pups much less from a showline litter. All of what was said is correct but does not gurantee success.

No offense but I have to say :

Pups turn out like their parents and grandparents - what are/were their working abilities like? Obedience champion and running for hours, catching a ball in the park does NOT equal good schutzhund prospect.

Working dogs have been carefully bred over generations to have a good grip, aggression, dominance, fight, tenacity and the construction to cope with jumps and hard training but YET RETAIN controlability and trainability. This is the art of the working dog breeder. I've seen showlines do ok at club level schutzhund but more often than not the dogs do not ENJOY the training as much as working line dogs and are too heavy for the jumps. I have seen too many fustrated showline owners push their dogs too hard and over correct. If they want to compete seriously or have a dog that is bred for the sport, then I'd advise them to go for a working line pup - NO OFFENSE intended. But if they want a showdog primarily and dabble in schutzhund then follow the advice already offered and you'd be ok.