MANUS V TIEKERHOOK PUPS FATHER DAUGHTER MATING ?. - Page 2

Sujay,

I commend you. Especially with having the guts to state you have culled. Good breeders take chances and make the hard decisions. You are a true breeder in my book. You are completly open and honest about what you have done.

Every breed started with in-breeding. Every one of them. Malinios breeders have been line breeding and inbreeding for years and guess what? Malinios are a healthier breed so those who say these dogs will have health problems are not educated breeders because with this or any breeding you cannot predict the future. Especially if you do not really know the lines.

I guess those who are bashing you would also bash Koos and the Tiekerhook kennel because he is in-breeding on Nick. I am continually amazed at this type of thing. I would suggest the people who are saying such negative things  show  what dogs they have produced and list their accomplishments.

I go back to my standard theory. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it bad. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

If you were not in the UK I would be contacting you on this litter. I wish you luck and encourage you to continue trying to produce strong dogs and impove the working ability of the breed.

Good luck.

HOW CRUEL IS THAT??????

TO DELIBERATELY MATE A FATHER TO A DAUGHTER TO 'FIX CERTAIN TRAITS' AND THEN MURDER HEALTHY (?) PUPPIES THAT ARE SURPLUS TO REQUIREMENTS!

I CAN UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR CULLING IF SOME OF THE RESULTING PUPPIES HAVE HEALTH PROBLEMS. THIS IS A CALCULATED RISK YOU TAKE WHEN INTER-BREEDING IS CARRIED OUT AND ONE MUST BE PREPARED TO 'DO THE DEED' BUT NOT TO KILL HEALTHY PUPPIES, THAT'S PLAIN IMMORAL!!!!!!!

Y

Good luck on your litter.....though I would not recommend this for 98% of dogs there are exceptions in which the results will bring more good than bad.It takes a very knowledgable breeder and an absolutely impeccable dog in both phenotype and genotype. I can't tell you that this will be successful but its evident that you have thought this out well to include the culling which is necessary. One of the Great German shepherds of East germay was Held v Riiterberg, who was successful in show and workinglines of that day. Foundation dog for many of the great Czech dogs also. His mother Burga vom Haus Himpel was inbred 2-2 on the impeccable Bernd v Lierberg. Burga is one of the great dams in DDR history. These same haters that are condemning you would also condemn a 2-2 breeding for the same reasons....but Bernd was one of the alltime great show/working/producers in German Shepherd history. The results in Burga is far superior to anything that all the haters here have ever produced. She was an alltime great!! I'm not saying this dog is Bernd, but I have great respect for the Tiekerhook line that Koos has over 8 to 10 generations of knowledge of the recessives and strengths. Good breeding is knowledgeable breeding and at least the dog you are using that knowledge is available to you. PS In the wild this type of breeding takes place with wolves all the time and the pack doesn't self destruct because of it. Again, not saying everybody should attempt this but it can be done and to catergorically condemn it on principle is somewhat sanctimonius to me.

Inbreeding is an accepted practice in most breeds. I never did understand how and why GSD breeders got the idea it is  voodoo science and the same as incest in the human world. Inbreeding can save you many generations of willy nilly matings of this dog to that dog in the hopes of getting something outstanding. Yes, it will sometimes reveal health issues and conformation faults we do not expect or want to see. However, it can also result in a litter of truly great dogs with the potential of producing more of the same. Dogs with pedigrees that are all over the board are never going to breed true and are going to give a breeder more failures than successes. It's just simple genetics. The more a great dog contributes to the gene pool, the better the chance of another great dog like him or her being produced.

If I wanted to breed a litter of GSD's I'd never buy a female that was not closely linebred or inbred on a dog I thought was outstanding,  the type of dog I wanted to reproduce.  I'd certainly give some very serious consideration to a father x daughter breeding bred on a dog that was strong in the traits I was looking for.  Both parents would need to be physically and tempermentally sound and free from any health issues. Hips and elbows would be very important.   Believe it or not, odds are the puppies will be born with all their body parts, will not die from some exotic condition before they reach 8 weeks of age and they will be kick ass dogs in the protection ring. Don't assume that every inbred litter will produce puppies that will even need to be culled. Many do not.

There is nothing cruel about it. We kill animals and our own people everyday, get a grip on yourself already. Nobody wants to daydream about puppies dying or people killing puppies but sometimes it is the "right" thing to do. Rather they go quick and humane than slow and painfull, or in the wrong hands. If they were not culled people would undoubtedly breed them and that is a greater injustice to the breed  than a few culled pups.

IMO father daughter mating is too close and should be left to very experienced breeders i wouldn't attempt it it is far to risky and i couldn't face having to put a litter down. JMO  

If I wanted a stud prospect puppy i would go for a inbred or a close line bred.

I used to show dalmatians and i wanted a replica of my dog. From line and out crossing i never got what i wanted. so i resorted to a close line breeding, between a in and line. Result was that I got a replica of my dog. a grandson. he had even almost the correct spots.

My dogs grand son passes strong genes and is a consistant in the quality of puppies he sires

Koos has been doing 2-2 breeding on Nick.

I agree outcrossing and the various sports are part of the reason for the malinios superior health. I think a bigger reason is the fact that they are not "pretty" or "popular" therefor do not fetch the price of a GSD. In my experience Malinios breeders are more likely to cull.  More money means more breedings, more puppies and less culling. All of which bring down the quality of a breed.

Don't inbreed, don't cull and breed alot. That will work

BLITZEN.        Inbreeding is NOT acceptable or ethical in our breed in the U.K.  Line breeding IS acceptable  !!!.

4.PACK.         We are not meant to be barbarians we are meant to be human . Killing for survival is a totally different thing. Senseless killing is deplorable !.

I could understand your inbreeding methods if the German Shepherd species was nearing extinction but its far from that !

Do you honestly believe that Manus is only dog in the world like him as Sujay so boldly states ????????? to have to mate him to his Daughter .........   I THINK NOT !!!!!!! .

Good knowledgeable breeders line breed very successfully without having to resort to incestuous breeding programs !.