Neurological symptoms again...

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by oso on 23 June 2008 - 03:06

Some of you may remember that a little while ago I posted about our dog who died after first having respiratory problems and then finally uncontrollable convulsions. The vet in the end thought it was distemper but after discussing the symptoms and events on this board we concluded that it probably wasn¿t. Just over a week ago another dog at our kennel suddenly became ill, again with neurological symptoms but the time scale and the actual symptoms were totally different, I do not really tink the two are connected but...(she is his granddaughter).? This is a female, nearly one year old. She does not belong to me but is bred by me and is here for training. She lives in a different area to my other dogs and did not have any direct contact with them, but she was revaccinated as a precaution when my dog died. She is mainly looked after by the trainer who works with us, but I feed her in the evenings. One night I went to feed her and found her lying on the kennel floor, instead of jumping up at the door as usual. When I went in she tried to get up but just fell down again. Her eyes were very watery and pupils dilated. I called the vet immediately. The trainer had called him about 4 days previously as she seemed to be a bit wheezy and had runny eyes, but the vet did not find much wrong, no lung problems just a slight irritation of upper airways, he said probably an allergy, he gave her some kind of anti inflammatory. She seemed better after this, but the day she collapsed the trainer told me that she had drunk exessive amounts of water that lunchtime. By the time the vet arrived she was standing up again, but collapsed when we took her out, her limbs seemed partially paralysed she would fold her back feet under, ie not being able to feel her feet. His immediate reaction was distemper again... Well, blood tests proved this was not distemper, she had elevated neutrophyls but no change leucocytes, I think. The vet injected dexamethasone (I think that is what he told me) and she responded well, in fact she now seems completely back to normal, jumping, happy, eating well and has been without treatment for several days. This was not like epilepsy. She did not have convulsions and even when she collapsed she never lost consciousness, she would wag her tail, respond to people and on the second day her front legs seemed nearly normal but the back ones still with some paralysis. She could urinate in almost normal position and had control over this. We really do not know what caused this, the vet thinks maybe a knock to the head or something else that caused inflammation of the brain. The owners are unfortunately causing problems and now want me to take this dog back and replace her because thay now think she has some kind of inherited brain disease and it might happen again...I forgot to mention the vet also did a blood test for glucose incase diabetes, but this was normal. I am sorry this is so long but I wanted to supply as much info as possible, if anyone has any experience or ideas as to what this could be and whether it is likely to recurr please let me know - I have tried looking in the internet, at the Merck manual etc. but cant seem to find anything that fits....

by oso on 23 June 2008 - 04:06

I am sorry, I typed this post with spaces between paragraphs, but when I posted it it came out all as one. This makes it less coherent but I hope it is not too difficult to make sense of...

by hodie on 23 June 2008 - 04:06

Hello Oso,

I remember you, of course. I am sorry to hear about this. There is a good chance that an infection caused this. Do you have the complete blood panel? If so, you may send it to me privately if you like and that is easier. Besides infection, a corticosteroid reaction has been described that also could account for the blood work anomaly that you mention, but it does not explain the signs you observed. I would like to ask you more questions.

I hope the dog is doing much better now.

by oso on 23 June 2008 - 23:06

Thank you Hodie, she is doing fine still. I will try to get a copy of the results later this afernoon and e-mail them to you, please go ahead and ask any other questions.

by JakodaCD OA on 24 June 2008 - 00:06

have you ever heard of the MDR1 gene in aussies/collies? German Shepherds ARE listed as dogs who could potentially be carriers of this gene.

I have an aussie who is 'mutant/mutant' for the mdr1 gene, which means she does carry the gene, would pass it on to offspring and there is a list of drugs a mile long that could potentially kill her.

I do not vac this dog, nor give any of the drugs listed. Here is the website with more info

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/ and www.busteralert.org is also a much more informative list of 'no no' drugs.

Ivermectin (as in heartguard) being one of the drugs.

I know of two people who own gsd's who are mdr1 gene carriers in one form or another. Just a thought.

Diane

by TIG on 24 June 2008 - 01:06

I see that you are in SA. Why is your vet so quick to label everything Distemper? Is it that common down there? Have your dogs been vaccinated and if so why would he/she doubt the efficacy of the vaccines? Are there other vet practices that you have access to?

Possibliies include infection above , parasite or protozoa ( ex flukes or certain worms ), an inherited neurological syndrome ( rare but worth looking at given grandfather's problems). The grandfather sounded as if he had a defective immune system - was that looked at ? Autoimmune problems have a high rate of inheritability.

Can she be getting into something in the kennel - pesticides. plastics, building material, local rats that have been poisened etc?

Could the trainer or owner be giving her a supplement w/o your knowledge? Many supplements contain arsenic because it makes the coat look good ( temporarily) but long term will kill the dog.

Compromised dog food - check out recent problems in US w/ contaminated food from China.

Finally - is there anyone ( neighbor, competitor, disgrunted employee or past employee or family member) who holds a grudge against you and maybe poisoning your dogs. With the symptoms you describe poison would be the first thing I would check for. Your vet should be able to do a tox screen for the most common ones. Hair analysis can also reveal things like arsenic load.

Is the anti-inflammatory the vet is giving her a steroid like prednisone? The problem with predisone is it merely masks symptoms and temporarily the dog will feel better ergo the owner feels better and thinks the vet has done something wonderful - -- usually not. These drugs must be used with great care and NEVER used when there is a possibility of infection since it is like lighting a match to gasoline with infection.

Good luck keep us posted.

by oso on 24 June 2008 - 15:06

Thank you for your posts, Diane, I will check the link you sent, I am still waiting for the complete blood results to send to Hodie.. TIG to answer your questions: Yes, distemper is very common here, but among unvaccinated dogs (of which there are a lot). I have only heard of one case in a GSD puppy who had already had its first vaccination, but no others in vaccinated dogs. In the first case the vet suspected distemper (only right at the end) because of the typical myoclonic convulsions he was having and that it was preceded about 3 weeks before by respiratory problems. In the second case the symptoms were different, but the very watery eyes made him wonder, he was thinking in terms of a vaccine-resistant strain. There are other vet clinics here but I have years of experience and he is the best vet here, and will consider all possibilities, but obviously none of them have the same education or experience as vets in the US, nor are so many testing facilities available. The vet told me that the blood tests did not indicate a parasite problem, I can't remember why but will check with him. What are the tests for autoimmune problems? (incidentally, I know genetic things can skip generations, but the mother of this dog, daughter of my male, has never had a days illness so far, she is 4,5). But I would like to confirm or rule out the possibility of somehing inherited if possible. The vet did suspect possible diabetes but the glucose tests were normal. I am pretty sure there is nothing toxic in the kennel, I do not allow rat poison on my property (also my vet sees a lot of cases of this and says the symptoms are very different). However, there may be rats around the area of her kennel - could they transmit any diseases that would cause this? She wasn't getting any supplements apart form cod liver oil occasionally. I feed Royal Canin that comes from Argentina, but all my other dogs eat the same. I am sure there is no one around here who would poison her, and she shared the kennel with another dog who is fine. The antiinflammatory he gave her was dexametasona (dexamethasone?), I am not sure if this is related to prednisone but will look it up. She had it for just 3 days, also vitamin E. She gradually recovered over 3-4 days has been free of symptoms for 8 days now. I know well how these steroids can mask symptos as this happened in the case of my male, the injections made him a lot better, at first but then he would be much worse again. What about her drinking lots of water mid day on the day this happened? I hope the paragraph breaks work out this time!

by malshep on 25 June 2008 - 11:06

good morning oso,

did you do an autopsy on your first dog? Was the first dog vacc for rabies? Your second dog did the vet look for disc problems in the spine? I hope all goes well.

by fda on 25 June 2008 - 11:06

There are many auto immune problems but their is a test that can be completed to identify the presence of such an illness( it will not specify which one though) is the rheumatoid factor test .This test is positive in the presence of any auto immune problem. This was the info we were given when our dog was undergoing various test before being finally diagnosed with systemic lupus and immune mediated thrombocytopenia. And although our dog didn't have rheumatoid arthiritis he did have S.L. E an auto immune disease. If the rhematoid factor test is positive you could work from there with your vet to identify the correct auto immune issue ..

Here in the uk we have an organisation that has an incredible knowldge in the field of auto immiune issues in canines.. They have a private forum /list (not listed in search engines.if you wish to conatct them please pm me and I'll pass on the link and contact info ).. Someone there asociated with CIMDA (the canine immune disease association) may well be able to help you .

My thought s are with you ,it must be a dificult time .

by Sparrow on 25 June 2008 - 14:06

I lost a young dog (20 months) last year to a sudden neurological problem that remained undiagnosed. He was playing ball and just fell, paralyzed on one side. He had to be put down a week later because he refused to eat and was wasting away. At the time they "surmised" that he injured his neck during play and even though a mylogram (sp?) showed no visible injury. They put a collar on him "just in case" and sent him home. Now that I'm reading this I'm wondering if it could have been a reaction to ivermectin as he was on heartguard. How sudden and severe can reactions appear? His feet would just fold under if you tried to stand him just as described above. He showed no improvement in the week following and was suffering too much to watch any longer. I had to put my sweet boy down 8 days after the onset.

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