Masters - Page 1

This is *so* pedigree database, and in some ways, *so* Schutzhund.

Louise Penery has made a good and healthy amount of contributions to this board, some of which have been extremely helpful.  I don't know Louise, but I do know Louise's writings and informational posts - seldom if ever filled with invective and garbage.  Come to think of it, I haven't read anything negative from Louise.

Louise's opinion on the Masters is Louise's, shared and in disagreement of the event.  Good post.  I'd like to share a contrary viewpoint.

Louise:  I believe the Olympics to be the uber ultimate of commercialization.  A city collects tons of revenue and imposes taxes on the massive attendance of virtually all merchants.  The Olympics committee makes a hundreds of millions of dollars for licensing and broadcasting rights (if anyone cares to elaborate on the details of the inner workings of the Olympics, feel free to correct me), and uses some of the money to develop sports in underdeveloped nations.  While the Olympics may be an "Amateur" sport in your idealized view (no disrespect intended), isn't - in 1992, they were opened to professional athletes (remember the "NBA Dream Team"?).   

"In 1999 the executive board of the IOC began to reform the process by which cities are selected to host the Olympics. The changes occurred after it was discovered that several IOC officials violated their oath to the Olympic Charter during the selection process by allegedly accepting cash payments and improper gifts from cities competing for the Games."

As a newbie, I thought Schutzhund was a test to determine viability of breeding, subsequently turned into a Sport.  The details of how this turned from Amateur Sport to massively commercial enterprise are lost on me, but it is.  

Carlos shared money with the winners:  $10k for the top prize. Will some of the DVD money help subsidize part or all of that $10k? Who knows - my guess is yes. The participants weren't victims: they were invited to participate with all terms spelled out up front.  Everyone knew the event would be videotaped.  The process of purchasing DVD's was present during the event.  I don't think the participants feel used in the process; they did their best in a for-money competition and their efforts were captured to be sold, in some instances, for the learning or admiration of others.

What I do think sucks is the constant personal crap that goes on in this board.  GregN: "Stick to your show dogs" - seriously - are you implying that Louise's preference of Show Dogs sucks, just as much as Louise's opinion of the commercialization by the Masters? I don't *like* the look of a "roachback", I don't yet understand their appeal, and I went to a Sieger yesterday.  Maybe one day I'll get it.  I don't yet, but I respect that people do. I just don't see the relevance of showdogs in Louise's opinion of Carlos' event.

Seriously.

Carlos put on a first class show.  I attended in person, and I may buy the DVD. I may not. Ethically, I have zero issues with what Carlos is doing.  I don't know what the deal with Outkast was, nor is it my business, but it sounds like they're pleased with their arrangement.  Hopefully, Louise may see that the event or its existence isn't so negative or sinister afterall.

 

Sorry - mis post. :) This belongs in the Master's thread - goes to show you how often I use this board. :)

If Oli or a Mod want to place it there, great with me...

Good post glbtrottr.

I really don't know why all the hoopla and upset people.  I've said it before..the pros are the ones keeping the sport and the breed afloat right now.  Who spends all the money on dogs and equipment not to mention, the trials?  Why shouldn't they have their own Master's tournament?

You can buy both video and photo's from the photographers at all of our horse shows.  We have classes for pros and classes for amateurs.  But even the amateurs have the pros training them and getting them ready for the show.  Is it not basically the same in Schutzhund?  Don't the majority of you work with a training director?  The training directors I know are mostly pros with their own kennels and businesses. 

Personally, as just a spectator, I'd much rather go and watch the pros work their dogs.  What we need are spectators and young people that will get interested in joining the sport and buying top notch pups and dogs.  I'm just a little tiny speck in the GSD world and lord knows the sport won't get much cash out of me and hundreds like me. 

Mi GSD, I agree with your post for the most part, except for the importance of the pros. The fact is, much of USA's actitivites and revenues are geared to the (ultimately) financial benefit of a handful of professionals, who generally (there are exceptions) give nothing back to the organization, its m3mbers, OR the breed. How many of the so-called top level competition dogs handled by these professionals have produced anything of note? Yes, there have been a few that lots of people bred to (Pirol is an example), but where are those progeny? What happened to them? We do not see "Prol son" or "Pirol granddaughter" in adds or commentsw about dogs currently performing in trials. Compare that with referenced to Troll, Crok, Orry, etc. As far as what the professionals (generally) give back to the membership, who have they helped achieve or succeed in the sport FOR FREE ( we do have some clients that they help to train and prepare for trials, and even accompany them to big events, because they are PAID to do so. Where are the club members who are competing with them at big events because those professionals have helped their clubs as training directors and coaches without private payment arrangements? They may elevate the ssport because their performances and achievements give the rest of us something to shoot for, but I doubt it goes beyond that. Not that that is not worth something... JMHO

glbtrottr: Thanks for your concern but don't worry about me (perhaps consider the source). As for show dogs, yes, I have always had ones able to do the work--could probably have been podium level dogs in hands other than mine or if owned by someone with different ego values/goals.
 

My problem is that I abhor any commercialization of our GSD's as they serve mankind. This dislike extends to all commercial breeding kennels who derive all or part of their livelihoods to trafficking in dog flesh. 

I hope that no one groups me with the many SL folks who cheat , wine and dine, and pay off judges in order to achieve bogus titles, breed surveys, and VA ratings. Knowing what I view to be the road to "success" of many, I am unmotivated to continue with the showing of GSD's. 

We can all learn from watching the handling and training techniques of competition handlers in the sport. However, we must always bear in mind the ultimate purpose of all performance training and titling: a test of breed worthiness--hopefully achieved on a level playing field. 

That being said, I disagree that the pros are the ones keeping the sport and the breed afloat right now.   The true guardian of the breed is the little guy--the reputable, small, hobby breeder who maintains and trains his dogs as companions and family members rather than as sports equipment.

Why is it all about money? How many paid helpers, trainers, and "pro" handlers insist on cash payments for their services? Is any of this reported to IRS as earned income? In the State of California, anyone who sells more than 2 dogs a year is required by law to have a resale permit and to charge sales tax. In the days that I bred an occasional litter, I had a resale permit and charged sales tax.  Why was I the "Lone Ranger"?

I agree 100% with Mystere that the pros contribute little or nothing to the organization, its members, OR the breed. On the contrary, it is exactly that the average member and even the smallest clubs that contribute to them with nothing in return. I realize the importance of professionals demonstrating the "best of the best", in any endeavor, but with rare instances, professionals in this sport as in other walks of life do it mostly for themselves. Is that wrong? No, not particularly, as it is what it is, but let's be honest about it. It is no different that the huge numbers of doctors who never do a thing to help anyone unless they can bill them, in contrast to friends I have, for example, who are at this moment in South Africa and Burundi training minority medical students. I don't begrudge anyone doing anything they like, assuming it is legal. And it would be nice if all people had a social conscience and sense of ethics which required one to "give back". But such people, in all walks of life are few and far between.

On the topic of holding "Masters" events, if someone wants to do so and pay for it, so be it. If I had time,  money and opportunity, I might even attend such an event (but I would not pay $200 for a DVD of it unless I knew something special was being done with the proceeds).  There can be abuses stemming from such promotions but that is not much we can do about it, and frankly, there are already a myriad of abuses going on in our breed and few seem to give a damn about them. For example, when someone has been demonstrated to neglect and abuse dogs in his care, no one says crap about it. So since, at this point, the tourneys are the risk of the promoters, what difference does it make to the average GSD enthusiast? Perhaps not much. From most accounts, the last such promotion was held and went well and people enjoyed it. So kudos to Carlos and if he does it again, so what? One can choose to support it or not as one wishes.

There are liars and cheaters involved with all bloodlines, not just showlines. However, most people only deal with one or the other kind of bloodlines and do not know this. I can name, for example, a kennel of working line dogs and the man running it is, at best, disingenuous. There are plenty of examples here in the states where people get high scores because they bring their buddy judges in to judge. In some instances, there probably are improprieties going on here and there, both in this country and abroad, when it comes to titles, show ratings etc. 

The true guardian of the breed is the little guy, both in breeding quality dogs and in training. Unfortunately, the organizations do not give credence or support to that fact and that is, in my opinion, one reason why the sport is dying. As for breeding, as long as some yokel thinks he/she can make money that they then don't report to the IRS, hell yes, there will be people breeding, regardless of whether the dogs they breed have little more to recommend them than 4 legs, 2 eyes and ears and a tail.

I also agree with Mystere and Hodie - excellent posts and very true IMO also.

 

molly