Hemangiosarcoma - Spleen - metasticized to lungs when to let go - Page 1

I am coming over here with this quesiton because I know there are several people on this board who have been through this particular afflication.

My 11+ year old male has this condition.  We know it is terminal and the real question we are struggling with is when to put him to sleep.

Right now he is pretty much sleeping 90% of the time, but is following me around the house most of the timel and occassionaly eating [but his appetite is pretty gone - we are giving him whatever the hell he wants to eat - today it was, dry cat food, yesterday it was canned dog food - but he has lost considerable weight - - he is now only 55 lbs, normally he is around 68].  He has flashes of normalcy - e.g., picking on a cat, throwing around a tennis ball, carrying a sock.  He does sometimes have labored breathing but not always. Color is still good.

The vet says this is not usually painful.  But I don't know. I just don't know when.........he will still trot around the yard when he is not sleeping. He wanted to chase balls yesterday, even if it was just a couple of short throws. SInce I work from home he is getting a LOT of time at my feet and sleeping in the bedroom etc. and the other dogs are getting less attention right now but they seem to be keyed into it that something is going on because they don't try to play with him and just sniff him a lot and are unusually calm around him.

I have let another dog go too far before putting him to sleep and I don't want to make that mistake but I want him to be able to really enjoy what time he has left.  The other dogs were easier as they were clearly suffering ............

For those who have been through this ----- how do I know?  He will be laying there in one spot for hours and I think - yes I have to take him tommorrow, then he gets up and does something silly and full of life................Part of me says it is a dogs life what does it matter to him if he is PTS tommorrow? The other says let him enjoy what is left, but is he? Why is this so hard? This is my 5th dog who has made it to this part of the journey, so we are not new at dealing with this.

Any suggestions on this from people who have dealt with this kind of illnes where you are not sure whether or not the dog is suffering woul dbe welcomed.

 Nancy,

First of all, I am sorry for your pain and the dilemma. I have faced this horrible situation with a dog of my own and several dogs in my rescue program and one dog who belonged to a friend. I also have a client who has an 11 year old dog with the same type of tumor on his liver. I have a dog here now in boarding who is 18 and who is circling non-stop, loosing weight, cannot see, deaf, and probably has cancer. She cannot eat without my blending her food, something I had to suggest to her owners. And I have to spoon feed her. If she were my dog, I would make the last loving action with her by putting her down. Her owners just cannot let go and in this case, I am certain there is no quality of life, and not at all certain the dog is not in pain.

My feeling is that your dog may sleep mostly simply because he is older. Dogs sleep, if given the opportunity to do so, for 16-18 hours a day. I have a 12 year old male and he seems in good health, but he sleeps much more now than he used to. When you see he cannot get up, really cannot do it, or he completely stops eating, or his breathing is becoming labored, or his gum color is pale, then it may be time. The thing to remember is that with this type of tumor, it may very well rupture suddenly and if it does, he will bleed to death in just two or three minutes perhaps. On the other hand, it may not rupture before it becomes obvious he must be euthanized.

Do as you are doing. Let him eat whatever he will. Perhaps even make him a gruel of kibbles and canned foods. You might also ask the vet about some vitamin B12 shots to help stimulate his appetite. 

It is always so hard to know when to say good bye. I suspect you will know, regardless of whatever any of us has to say. Then you go and stay with him and tell him how much you love him and say your good bye. Whenever I have put a dog down I always try to write a letter to them afterwards. I find it helps me grieve, remembering in writing all the great times we had together.

Good luck.

Nancy,

One of my dogs is dying of cancer as well.  I am hoping and praying I will knowwhen the right time arrives   She is my first dog so I don't have any experience with "just knowing."   for me the factors will all have to add up....  no desire to chase her ball will be a big clue... 

My heart is with you on this one.  i m sorry I can not offer any more insight.

Darcy

I lost my male a year ago January 9th to the same cancer at the age of 8 years old. It is in deed very painful. My vet performed surgery and removed the spleen as it was actually bleeding out into the abdominal cavity. I kept him comfortable and let him eat whatever he wanted and he was on the road to recovery, however, work caused me to have to go out of town for several days and the person taking care of him didn't think he needed to have free choice water and when I got home he was having kidney problems. Well we got him through this however, it weakened his system and then the problems resurfaced he had more fluid in the abdomen but didn't seem to be in pain and did a lot of sleeping and was by my side constantly. I stayed home with him and wouldn't leave him unless it was absolutely necessary and not for very long when I did. I was told by the vet that the cancer was in the bloodstream and that it was starting to work on his system again and that it was only a matter of time.
I must say for only having him in my life for the few months I owned him I have to say he melted my heart and I couldn't have loved him more if I had gotten him when he was a puppy.
When his time came I knew it because the breathing was a little more labored, not a lot, so I called the vet to have him come to the house and put him to sleep. The vet never made it in time. When my friend passed it was very peaceful, he simply raised his head looked over at me like he did so many times when he wanted attention, so I went to him and loved on him. Then a couple of minutes later he raised his head again (as if to say goodbye) looked at me and then laid his head back down took a breath and was gone.

I am not saying this will be the same with your guy but this could be how he goes. The lungs do tend to get fluid in them so whereever he is laying at the time that fluid will come out when he passes so be sure to keep some towels handy or give him a nice big blanket to lay on.

My Natie never really got bad until just a couple of hours before it was time.

I hope this helps you with your decision. My vet always tells me you will know when you have to love 'em enough to let 'em go.

Oh one thing which helps to give them some stamina is to make an eggnog with 3 eggs, milk and 1 tblspn of honey or dextrose.

Good luck and God Bless I will keep you in my prayers!

I can hardly answer your post because I had a much loved dog die from the same condition.  Since you seem so sensitive and caring to his state of being, I am sure you will know when it is the time to let go.  Bless you and let your boy tell you as he surely will when the time has come.

Nancy and Darcy, I too am sorry for your pain. I would like to thank you for your care and love of your German Shepherd. It sounds like you have very lucky dogs.

What I have often said to friends when asked this question is that there is no right time but also no wrong time. Usually the dog will tell you. Watch the eyes. Sometimes they know we are not yet ready and will hold on for us.  So do what you are doing - love for them and care for them.  A treat that will help with the energy is to get some chicken livers and even if the dog is not up to eating the liver ( tho usually one small one per meal is ok) you can drain the blood off and give that to them. Also you might get some Essiac. It is a herbal infusion said to fight cancer but I know some old time stock people who have successfully used it as a tonic to help older animals feel better and have a better quality of life.

I do not  mean to be insensitive since I know this is a painful time for you both but I know a researcher who is working on hemangio, trying to identify the genetic factors. I do not know if she requires a cheek swab or a blood sample but if you or any other board members would like her contact info please PM or email me. She also is looking for older dogs who do not have hemangio.

Hodie I love your idea of a letter to the dog. I usually write them to the vets and other people important in their life to thank them for their help and in that letter also honor the special qualities of that dog.

Nancy and Darcy, thank you again for your loving care of your German Shepherd Dog. Our hearts will be with you.

I have known 3 people with dogs who have died from this in the past 6 months. (All German Shepherds.)  My one friend was walking her dog, and the dog collapsed. She took her to the Emergency Vet, they were prepping the dog to do surgery, and the dog died before they did the surgery. My other friend decided to put thre dog down as soon as she found out.  She was advised by her Vet that the dog was old and would not live through the surgery. The third, was the neighbors' dog. The dog had the surgery, came home, was home 24 hours, the dog layed at her feet,  and she died. The first dog was 8 years old, the second dog was 12 years old, and the third dog was 10 years old.

This is a tough and painful decision. Look in his eyes, his eyes will tell you.

Dawn

Thanks for the thoughtful advice.  This morning it was pork loin and eggs for breakfast. We will take it one day at a time and I will look into his eyes a lot.

 Nancy, the eyes indeed will tell you a lot.

We will be thinking of you.

Nancy, I am so sorry and I speak from experience.

In April, I found out that my 11 1/2 year old shepherd, Phanny, had an osteo-sarcoma tumor deep in her pelvic bone. It is a very aggressive cancer and I knew that we would not have long. I was given a bottle full of tramadol and fentanyl patches to manage the pain. The narcotics upset the tummy and she lost her appetite. The Pharmacist's assitant told me to buy Gingerforce gelcaps by New Chapter. I gave Phanny one capsure 30 minutes to 1 hour before feeding her. That made all the difference in the world. She happily ate canned good quality cat food.

With all the narcotics, she was having a good time with my puppy and spending a lot of time sleeping in comfort. Like you, I did not want to take away from her any enjoyment of life.

My vet carefully explained to me what the next step would be, when her pelvic bone would start fracturing. No painkiller at any price would be enough to stop that kind of pain.

One evening, she could not get comfortable and was pacing and panting. I had just given her a fresh fentanyl patch a few hours earlier. I gave her 4 tramadols (the maximum) a few hours before she was due for her next dose. After 45 minutes with no improvement, I knew that the next step was happening..

I went with a friend and my puppy Pharaoh to the emergency room where we all huddled together and said our last goodbye.

Talk to your vet and find out what the signs are for your next step and what you can do for keeping her comfortable.

You are in my prayers.

Michele and Pharaoh