seperate masters thread - Page 1

I rarely start a topic but have been discussing this with a couple people now. At first when I saw this event I thought this was a very good thing as it can start to bring schutzhund into the limelight and make it as popular as other k9 sports in north america. There are tons of people that attend dog shows and get dogs and don't know what to do with them and are fascinated with schutzhund when they see it. We can make the sport grow. This is potentialy very good.

But the breeder in me is thinking a bit different, if this becomes a regular thing and purses start to grow. Ya it would be cool, but will it cause the breed to get even "sportier" then it is? People would just want 100's across the board and certain traits may be lost. Nothing wrong with that for some people, but for the breeds sake is it good?

Not meant to take anything away at all from the Masters. I commend the organizers and competitors involved. Good luck and hope its a wonderful weekend.

No need to argue, just a discussion, while we wait for more results to come in!

I was present at the Master's this morning.  Very Good ob and protection.  Some of the dogs were quite convincing in the blind.  Some also showed nice escape grips, actually pulling and not going for the ride.

From a breeders stand point, are you breeding to fashion or the preservation of the true GSD?  In my humble opionion,  I understand business, but if you are breeding to pay your mortgage, you will breed to what the market dictates.  I believe we have seen the results with many show line and prey monster dogs.

In a whole litter not all dogs are going to be champions.  But I believe if your goal is to breed service dogs, there will be sport dogs amoung the litter.  If you breed for points dogs, ie. high prey, low social aggression and defence,  I don't think you will come up with many dogs that can go into service work.

Perhaps there will be a way to cap the amount of Masters type tournaments.  Perhaps this will force the  UScA and WDA to start offering prize money at national events.

Food for thought,

Kyle

Is there a site where I can see the scores so far?

very good input Kyle.   i dont really see the need for the money aspect (aside from it being a way to offset the cost of training and trialing a top dog). 

Dannyj,, we already have people breeding dogs for sport.  from what i have seen and heard in judges critiques,  they will point out that a dog needs to be "more convincing" in the guarding portion.  i  was told once by a judge that my female was the only dog to acctually "impede" the helper on  the escape bite (too bad she didnt out at the very end and we failed).  

breeding for "sport" may get you points in certain aspects, but it will never produce the total dog  in my opionion. 

as kyle stated in his post, you wont get everything you want in every pup out of every litter.

my 2 cents,

john

Perhaps this will come as a surprise to some of you, but the majority of dogs that you see competing at high levels of the sport are not "prey monsters".  To reach such a level of competition a trainer requires that a dog has more than just prey drive to work with.  In fact, I am sure that if you asked most top trainers what is the No.1 characteristic they want, they would reply that they want a dog to be very hard.  They need a dog that can withstand corrections and compulsion without crumbling.  

  You are correct though; a lot of these dogs could not do police work.  Why?  Simply because they are too much dog for an average K-9 officer to work with.  Actually, most K-9 handlers would prefer a dog a bit weak in nerves (quicker to light-up), and a bit handler sensitive to a super hard dog that can be corrected with a 2x4.   

As far as breeding goes.  If it is done correctly, it will not be the best pups from the litter that are suitable for police work, but rather the lesser ones. 

"As far as breeding goes.  If it is done correctly, it will not be the best pups from the litter that are suitable for police work, but rather the lesser ones."

I cannot agree with this my friend.  Police service dogs are supposed to be the cream of the crop that a breeder has produced!

"Actually, most K-9 handlers would prefer a dog a bit weak in nerves (quicker to light-up), and a bit handler sensitive to a super hard dog that can be corrected with a 2x4"

Whooa! I cannot agree with this either.  The problem with LEO K9 handlers and trainers is the old school philosophy.  I know it all too well.  I am a LEO in the northeast.  LEO's get these type of dogs as donations and schutzhund rejects. 

There is a reason why the Police K9 Championships are no longer held with the BSP in Germany.  Once upon a time breeders would donate their best to the Police out of a sence of public duty, honor and integrity to country and GSD.  When schutzhund became "sport" (no longer test of breed worthiness) and the value of the dogs increased  the practice stopped.  The quality of dogs donated declined.

The following are Police K9 handlers and trainers that have had much success in the sport, Mike Diehl, Bernhard Flinks, Gerald Groos and Horst Dieter Trager.  Do you think these gentlemen would agree with your remarks?

"As far as breeding goes.  If it is done correctly, it will not be the best pups from the litter that are suitable for police work, but rather the lesser ones."  "Actually, most K-9 handlers would prefer a dog a bit weak in nerves (quicker to light-up), and a bit handler sensitive to a super hard dog that can be corrected with a 2x4"

My words are not to challenge, but to provide serious thought into philosphy and sources of information.

Kyle

Hi Kyle,'

  I must disagree; but i will preface by stating a few facts.  There are, indeed, many SchH 3 dogs that would be incapable of performing as a police K-9.  On the other hand, there are some very competant police K-9s that would not be able to make a BH much less a SchH1.  I truly respect the job of Police K-9s and their handlers, but facts are facts.  

  Dogs that go to the police are certainly not the best that a breeder produces.  The fact of the matter is, the police end up with dogs that are deficient in some way.  Your attitude is typical of police -dog handlers.  Their thinking is: " "My dog must be able to cope with a wide variety of circumstanmces, in different environments and without a rehersed routine."   This is certainly true.  However, police-dogs are not expected to perform with flawless precision.  They need not show 100%grips all the time, and be 100% under control all the time.  They only need to deal with pressure coming from one side, unlike a schutzhund dog, that not only needs to deal with pressure from the helper, but also from the handler.  Police-dogs need only to bite.   

  The last dog I worked for the sport, I ended up selling to the police.  He was a nice dog, but I had a problem with his grip.  He would bite full, then slide back to a 3/4 grip.   In a SchH3 there are 5 grips, 2 points lost per grip.  I am not a good enough trainer to start at 90 points.   As a police-dog, however, none of the bad guys have seemed to notice.

  From my experience, most K-9 officers do prefer a dog "quicker to light-up" and one that is more handler sensitive.  This makes sense though.  Why would an officer want to fight his dog for obedience?   When, with a raised voice, his dog is ready to comply.  Contrast this to a dog that must show 100% precision in all exercises.  This dog must be able to accept repeated corrections and compulsion until an exercise is 100%. 

  When schutzhund became a sport, of course the quality of dogs donated declined.  Who would give a dog away when it is worth $5K. 10K, or 250K??  This, of course, is also a reason that many police departments don't have good dogs.  They simply do not have the funds buy them. 

  I am quite sure that Mike, Bernhard, Gerald and Horst would agree with me that it takes a better dog to get to the top of sport than is required for the street. 

Zahnburg, you stated:

"I must disagree; but i will preface by stating a few facts.  There are, indeed, many SchH 3 dogs that would be incapable of performing as a police K-9.  On the other hand, there are some very competant police K-9s that would not be able to make a BH much less a SchH1"

First off I disagree with you, you are not stating facts but your opinion.  Are you or have you ever been a K-9 handler?  Are you even Law Enforcement?   I agree that there are many SchH dogs that would not be suitable for police dogs, due to weak nerves and totally prey driven.  However, there are some very nice SchH dogs that would make excellent police dogs, perhaps better police K-9's than SchH dogs.  That point I agree with.  But, to say a competent Police K-9 couldn't pass a BH is a joke. Police K-9's certify at least once a year, they do on leash, off leash obedience which includes a sit and down out of motion, heeling, recalls and hand signals in addition to voice signals.  The dog then must certify in tracking and protection with "call offs" or outs. And article searches in a field.  This is the certification for "Patrol Dogs."  Cross trained patrol and narcotics/explosives go through an additional certification.   For the Virginia Police work dog association, VPWDA the obedience routine is similar to a SCH routine with out the dumbell work. 

Most K-9 handlers I know want strong nerved dogs, we don't need weak dogs that "lite up easy" as you say.  A strong dog can be fired up when needed.  Police Dept's dont want liability, a dog that lites up too easily is a liability. 

You also stated

"They only need to deal with pressure coming from one side, unlike a schutzhund dog, that not only needs to deal with pressure from the helper, but also from the handler.  Police-dogs need only to bite' 

Wow, wrong again.  I have decoyed for SchH dogs since '94 and I also decoy for police dogs.  I can assure you, the K-9' s I work get 20 x more pressure than any SchH dog I work.  For Police work the dog has to be hard and serious.  When we do bite work for the K-9's they are not concerned with their handler, because the decoy is a seriously bad person who makes the dog believe it is in a very real fight.  I also teach defensive tactics to our academy classes, when we put on the "red man" suit the recruits believe they are also in a serious fight and they learn a lesson.  THe k-9's get taken to the ground and wrestled like a person would fight.  I don't do that with SchH dogs.  And the K-9 handler has to have control over the dog so there is also alot of pressure from the handler. 

Maybe the outs aren't as clean, but when you are trying to apprehend a violent felon their are no points involved.  Winner is the K-9 and handler that goes home safely each night.  I compete in SchH and I love working dogs in SchH, but you can't compare it to Police k-9 handling.  99% of the people doing SchH and their dogs could never be in K-9. 

As far as dog's go our dept will pay about $6,000 tops for a dog.  So, yes people with money who are into SchH can spend more on a dog than most PD's will.  It is hard to find a really nice GSD for 4 or $5,000.  It is easier to find a good Malinois for that price.  It is sad for our breed.  I happen to have an excellent GSD that I got as a pup, he is now 2yrs old and July 1 he should be my Police k-9.  He is ready for his SchH 1 now and will ready for his 3 in the fall.  I know Bernhard Flinks and Gerald Groos personally.  Bernhard visited me in January and spent 2 weeks at my house, he did a seminar for my PD.  Bern

This is very interesting.  Often is the case that we learn more about a persons understanding of dogs, drives and training the more they speak and or type.

LEO K9's have a little thing called liability to contend with on the street.  The weak nerved dog that is quick to light up is a "liability" without a strong handler, control and obedience.  Many points dogs could never work on the street because they lack the social aggression to contend with real pressure.  Which takes more control, the call off from a dog that is going to bite for real or, damn, all of the C phase exercises are done in prey.  No one in their right mind would take a weak nerved dog into a grammar school for a demonstration, what a liability.  Police dogs must grip and hold. Not grip and munch up and down a suspects arm and leg making multiple punctures.  The weak nerved dog is going to grip with front teeth then let go.  The grip is genetic (full hard grips cannot be taught).  Weak grips can be masked but when presure is applied the weak grip will show itself.   Your dog that had a full grip that went weak is very telling.  The department that took the dog did so to keep its program going.  Aus is Aus, I don't care what venue you are working.  The Police dog that does not out is a liability.  We are talking training here.  The only time an out with difficulty could be understood is the dog in fight drive.  Many trainers (police and schutzhund) have not seen a dog in true fight drive.

Look ,here is where you are missing the point of schutzhund.  Real schutzhund training is evaluating a dogs ability to go onto higher learning, Service Work.  Real schutzhund training is not only working on routine but sending a dog into the woods with the helper using a tree as a blind.  Many schutzhund dogs are ruined from routine work day in day out, weak barks, slow aroung the blind, no challenge.  Many trainers (schutzhund and police) are one trick ponies.  If a dog does not respond to the trainers style of teaching, the dog is called crap.  Crap is the trainer that does not have a bag of tricks or more than one training method to get a dog to learn and or perform.

Which is the better dog, the dog that does a rountine well but without joy for the work and gets full points or the dog that is barking and spitting in the helpers face daring him to move.  Which is the better dog, the dog that does an automatic out when the helper stops moving, or the dog that holds and pulls down until instructed to out.

Z ,you are confusing points for quality and character.  Remember there was a Jack russel that performed a schutzhund C rountine.  Would you put him on the street.

Z,  If you breed for points, you are not going to get balance or stronger dogs capable of doing service work.  This experiment has been done already and the results are on the training fields.

:When schutzhund became a sport, of course the quality of dogs donated declined.  Who would give a dog away when it is worth $5K. 10K, or 250K??  This, of course, is also a reason that many police departments don't have good dogs.  They simply do not have the funds buy them".

Which is more important, winning a trophy or winning on the street so that a childs parent can make it home at the end of their shift.  Don't give deparments your throw aways.  Departments take them to keep the units going, not becase they think they are great police dogs.  Don't fool yourself.

" I am quite sure that Mike, Bernhard, Gerald and Horst would agree with me that it takes a better dog to get to the top of sport than is required for the street. "

Donkeys will fly before Mr. Diehl, Flinks, Groos and Trager will agree with that statement.  Sport dogs are probably bet

BarkPark:  here's the link for you:  http://www.2008masterstournament.com/

On the left-hand side, look for the Results button.

Tracking was Friday.  Some dogs did Obedience and Protection yesterday.  The Obedience dogs will do their Protection today, and the ones who did Protection yesterday do their Obedience today.

I was there yesterday and I loved it.  I thought a lot of the best dogs were not "prey monsters" but were a level above that: truy solid, stable, WORKING dogs, I'm not saying this very well and don't know how to explain it, but I saw GOOD dogs and GOOD handling and learned tons.

Some of the dogs put in great performances on the field and in addition are BEAUTIFUL in conformation as well.  Impressive.

btw, the temperature at 10:30 am was 98 degrees F with very high humidity.  I'm sure the Florida dogs didn't think twice about it but MAN, were conditions awful.  To see the level of superb, happy performances in those conditions is not to be forgotten.  I could not be there today for the finale, but I'd certainly go again.