Why? - Page 5

Brittany, The "z Pohranicni straze" kennel bred/breeds dogs for working their borders. They are primarily old DDR and Czech working line dogs. Every once in a while they may add in some WGR working lines, however they do not do it like that pedigree would suggest. "Outcrosses" like that are usually done to one of their bitches that they have set their type. RE: the picture, it should've clued you as to it being a false one. The dog is definitely built like a showline, however the pedigree is all working. ;o)

This business of what is pretty is a personal one. For me showline black and tan saddle dogs are "not" pretty. In this country, it all started with everyone wanting a "Rin Tin Tin". That image has persisted. I prefer a dark dog, whether it be sable, black, etc. What's most important is how they work. I've worked a few showline shepherds that were good, and I've worked German, Czech line dogs, etc. that didn't grip well. But based on averages the working lines produce working dogs, and the showlines produce non-working dogs. There is no golden middle. If you really study the dogs the Germans breed to, to produce working ability, it's the hard alpha dogs. They probably weren't the best sport dogs. Their scores are not usually the best, but they throw the kind of intensity that's needed in a real working line dog. Sure, the top sport dogs with the high scores are sometimes bred a lot. Most of those puppies go abroad. America loves to buy the score of the moment. If you have a show line shepherd for "looks" and you like him, great! But don't try to convince me they make good working dogs. It rarely happens, and doesn't carry on generationally.

What colors genetics would happen if you were to breed a black and red dog (showline) to a Dark/black sable working line? Heres another gorgeous BLACK dog thats fully structured, IMO! http://www.elliotsv.de/

I really would like to see the German Shepherd ShowRing to consider the diversity of collors present in the breed, I am sure good dogs can born in any collor, the breeders just need to go after that. I hope to see VA dogs Blacks, Dark Sables, Black Sables (Like Timo), Wolf Sables, Bicollors, Black and Tans (Traditional), dogs with the collors of some DDR. Thats genetic diversty in collor. Let work on that!. That will just be a matter of time. We will end up with the prejudices!. Every German Shepherd Fan will have the chance to choose the collor he likes, even to compete at the SHOWRING!.

I know this is an old thread, but I came across this georgius dog and he is solid black too! http://anrebri.cz/PIC/voodoo/voodoo_3.jpg

This question comes down to human preference. The owners and breeders of show dogs (privately) understand clearly that a red dog makes a better impression because of his flashy presentation. Judges also recognize that to place a dog such as Timo VA1 would not serve its intended function since those same breeders would likely not use him for fear of producing unsaleable pups. While I am a big fan of Timo, and feel that he was not well used by breeders, I also recognize that his progeny groups have not been competitive, which is a definite precursor to high VA placement. The working enthusiasts by contrast, have embraced a biggoted view of those characterstics that define a show dog. As a result, working dog breeders and owners are actively selecting against b/brn saddle as well as certain structural elements (both good and bad). Another factor is the tendency of many to pigeon hole dogs in one activity or another to the extent that a strong show dog is not trained to his potential, does not compete, and is not recognized for his working value. At the same time many working dog enthusiasts do not show train or condition their dogs nor do they make a concerted effort to achieve a V rating for dogs that might be worthy. These together serve to circumvent the purpose of both breed shows and working titles which is to select the best all around breeding stock and to better understand what is working and what is not. This places a greater burden on US the breeders to do careful research. Best Wishes, Jonah

A two part answer: First, the creative breeding genius of the Martin brothers, Walter and Herman. They weren't perfect as many know, but they were breeding geniuses. They figured out how to breed the GSD to give it a much more attractive appearance and fixed type, selecting out the genes for black saddles and bright red/orange color (in Germany the coat color red is referred to as braun). Lately many in the USA have criticized these showline Black and Red dogs, saying that they are inferior in temperament including working ability. These criticisms in and of themselves are not valid. Here's why: because almost all of the dogs bred by Walter and Martin were very of sound temperament, and a significant proportion were strong enough to easily compete in profung shows if their owners decided to go that direction as a main preference. The Martins took good working temperament quite seriously, but they also loved beauty and wanted the GSD to look as good as possible. They wanted the total GSD and got it! Many of their dogs were hard as nails and perfect in mind. In Germany, many of the first sables were deep black and red, largely lost today (I know of only two bred in the USA in the last 30 years and these dogs looked great). And of course, there are many working line sables that have deficient pigment, poor genes, and are faulty in temperament and health (just as many as the showlines). The second reason: The world market has specified over and over again that this is the appearance preferred and those of means will pay very large amounts of money for these individual GSDs with titles. Most wealthy buyers who are the princes of international industry prefer these Black and Red GSDs over any sables, this is an established fact, like it or not. Yes, VA Timo was superb in every way and was georgeous, and produced quality. Arlett Kennels has produced perhaps most beautiful true and dark sables available and some of the most beautiful black and tans, too (VA Ulk was absolutely georgeous and had great temperament). It has been clearly shown that the world market prefers black & red 50 to 1 and has raised the prices too high for most working line customers.

I have seen some really nice West German Working lines black and red. The Dam of my current black sable female was one of them. Could not have asked for a better working dog and she still had excellent conformation. With the current physical requirements to win in show it is difficult to maintain the strong working ability. Some breeders do better than others at it.

DesertRangers, excellent. You proved my point. Do your your black and red working line dogs have richer pigment because they are out of a sable dam? Some West German breeders have claimed that rich, dark sables can produce black and tans with much deeper pigment. Also, they have claimed that periodically breeding back to dark sables brings in extra vitality and robustness. Do you believe this? Do you have any photos of your GSDs on pedigreedatabase?

Preston, The claims regarding sables improving pigment, working ability, etc are proof that otherwise sensible people are susceptible to faulty logic at times. Not only is the claim preposterous, but those making the claims should certainly know better. While there are many sables with deep pigment, there are also many with washed out pale pigment. Good pigment begets good pigment. Best Wishes, Jonah