Why? - Page 3

<> I'm sure your black and tan dog is wonderful, but I believe the original question and answers are about "black and red" dogs - yes I am aware that "red" is not a color described in the standard, but "black and red" is the normal term for German (imported) show-line dogs. That is because they are always black and red (redder than tan) in color. The shows mentioned are not Crufts or AKC shows but German conformation shows such as the Seiger Show. The working trials mentioned are not AKC obedience titles but SchH trials. So I repeat again - how come I never see a black and red dog winning "honors" at a working trial (ie top-level SchH trial such as National Championship, WUSV or BSP?) Answer - because the show-line black and red dogs are bred to show. They can work, sure they have SchH3 titles. But they are not competitive at the top levels of SchH. The working-line "black, black/tan and sable" dogs are competitive at the top levels of SchH sport, but are not competitive in the show ring (Seiger Show etc). They can show, and sure my dogs have conformation ratings and Koerung. But could they win the Sieger Show? I don't think so - not what they are bred for. Two different lines, that's how it is. Now, American and Crufts show dogs vs AKC obedience dogs are a completely different topic.

Fida, A wonderful working dog that came from showlines was Niko von der Hochantenne, a black & tan and won the German Meisterschaft in 1988 and 1989. Niko's handler was a woman out of the USA, Jackie Reinhart. She was the first American to win the German Meisterschaft. The right dog with the right handler. They say he was an exception. But he had to be because I had a dog out of him that I consider to have had "perfect" temperament (also a B&T). Would love to know if anyone has any dogs out of his line. His sire was: Natz von Arminius (VA) and Mother Hilla von der Hochantenne (V). No Line Breeding. What a dog! if you ever see him on a video! My 2 cents on the subject. Sunny

Silbersee wrote: "The bad thing is that nice sables are still rare, and I have yet to find a beautiful black." I've seen several that I'd rate as beautiful, but I will have to agree with you that it's much harder to find very attractive black GSDs,and nearly as hard with bi-colors, too. I think this is due more to a 'trick of the eye' sort of effect--in the saddled and sable dogs, there's variation in the coloration and pattern which distracts from any flaws, and enhances the positive attributes of a particular dog. There's a definite difference in expression in the blacks and bi-colors, too--again, I believe it's the result of the solid plane of color, which doesn't supply the same effect as the masking and facial markings of the saddled and sable dogs. An old-hand GSD breeder once commented to me that a solid black would always have to be nearly perfect in structure in order to do anything in the breed ring, because the great expanse of color just served to amplify any fault that was present and make it seem more glaring than an identical fault in a patterned dog. From what I've seen of the blacks and bi-colors, I think this theory is pretty much dead-on.

Are there any living V rated blacks? It's my favorite color and I've seen several here in PA that I would have loved to own.

V-Xito vd Maineiche Schh3,KKl-1 is living, though I don't know if he is still producing. I bred my female to him once, producing a litter of puppies who are now all working-titled and very good-looking - one is "Kougar" on this board - she has been told that her dog "Kougar" from my breeding to Xito, might go "V" in conformation and I don't doubt it - he is very handsome and correct. Another is V-Troll v Kassler Kreuz SchH3,FH2,IPO3,KKl-1 - he is standing in NH.

Ah - and another one that slipped my mind but shouldn't have - I have used him in my program 4 times! V-Sid vd Fasanerie SchH3,KKl-1 - a handsome black dog in Wisconsin, owned by Larry Filo of Steinig Tal Kennel.

Ever hear of Cliff vom Huhnegrab? An excellent "working" dog from ALL conformation lines!!! Multiple time BSP competitor AND V rated at the BSZS. If I'm not mistaken , Cliff was also the sire to Nestor v. Wolfsburger Schloss, another TOP placer at the BSP. Does anyone else have other examples?

I don't know much about all this but I believe VA1 (S) SUCH Triumphs Gucci SchH3 IPO1 BHP3 Kkl 1 was quite an all rounder and had been placed as high as V7 at the sieger show. He looks quite black and reddish to me (I don't know if that is what everyone calls red). He is here in the database of course. Residing in the US now I think.

Eichenluft, Do you live in PA? If so, would it be possible for me to pay you a visit and see your dogs? I'm not a potential buyer, just a GSD lover who hasn't seen many working dogs and would really like to. Thanks,

I am sorry that I stepped on some working line enthusiasts's toes. When I stated that I have yet to see a beautiful black, I meant a black out of conformation lines. Yes, I know Bobby's Xito. Blitzen, he is right outside of Baltimore, if you wan to visit him. Kougar, I am sure your male is nice. I was referring to conformation lines. To my knowledge, there is no black GSD, period. I heard from somebody that Mr. Messler once said that if anybody will enter a nice black male he will put him up, too. That was in response to him placing Wanko vom Lippischen Norden so high at the Sieger Show. Hexe, I think you explained it much better than I could. A black GSD has to be perfect. Due to his color, he will always look more refined than he actually is, his head will not look as big, and his eyes will most likely neber be dark enough. Ed - at the next show or trial, please introduce me to your dog, lol. Chris