Why? - Page 2

Hi Fida, it is not true that Sables don't excel in the show ring (please not that I do not use the word "win"). Look at Timo Berrekasten coming in VA-2, but should have been VA-1 the last time (which would have happen if he had not been sable). The black and brown uniformity was established under Hermann Martin's presidency. When Peter Messler took over, a different tend began, especially when it was realized that "unknown" and "smaller" breeders had some luck, too. The sable conformation line has always been around, look at Margit van Dorssen. She used to breed some under the Wienerau kennel name, before registering them under hers. And I am personally thankful to people like her that she kept that going. See, we like sables very much. Our two homebred sable girls both received SG-1 ratings in the youth classes of our regionals, Quora also an SG-5 at the 2000 USA Sieger Show. And I firmly believe that she would have placed higher if she was black and red. We had the only sable male entered at the 2004 USA Sieger Show, who placed (only) V-16. But I would like to believe that it was due to his size (he is huge), not his color. He is so dark and red, that you can not recognize him as a sable from a distance. We just imported another sable male vom Arlett, who is also very dark, and will hopefully do well here. When we started to get into sables, a lot of people told us that it is risky and nobody wanted to have these puppies. We have found that this is not true and we get phone calls from people actively looking for them, especially since we always make sure that there is good pigment. Washed out sables are even worse than washed out B&Ts. It all comes down to personal preference. The bad thing is that nice sables are still rare, and I have yet to find a beautiful black. Chris

I must say I am getting very tired of the constant show line versus working line dribble. We should be breeding to the standard which means the structure and workablity should both be important. I want my dog to be able to work but I would also like him to look beautiful. Those that look just at structure or those that only care about drive do the breed a disservice. However, I am that color is so important in the show ring - There are many dogs structurally better than our top VA dogs whose only "fault" is that they are not red and black. The red and black has become so important that I know of people dyeing there dogs. Anytime we focus so much on just one trait the breed looses out. We who have German lines constantly point out how superior ours are to American lines - however beware, we could easily go down that path too.

Timo Berrakasten, sable, was VA2 in Germany Champ Dakota, sable, was V2 also in Germany So here you got your sables with honors in the show ring

javo u mentioned just 2 ...while there ar literaly thousands of V, VA , Sg dogs ( balck and red) the number of sables r negligible. So what happens to the sable pups in a litter were boty parenst ar like VA or V or whatever.

Frida Asked: "Why are all working line dogs sable or black but never the traditional black and red." Since you used the word all, I will offer that not all. The more well known lines that produce this pattern are Drigon lines. Or breeders that use the old school Kirschental lines like Uwe and his brother you will see this pattern. Chris said: " I have yet to find a beautiful black. Chris" Oh Chris, this is because you haven't seen my male!! ;) He is the most handsome dog on earth.. LOL Seriously, did you get a chance to see Gringo when he was still alive? I saw him once, and he was a handsome dog. V rated in 3 different countries. Ed

I was given you a couple of examples about sables with honors in the show ring, there is many more in many conutries.........may be you can find some answers to your question in the article of Mrs. Van Dorsen (Kennel Arlett) ¿The sable Shepherd "A museum piece"?¿ at http://www.arlett.de/ under the title of Sables.......

eichenluft - Firstly Red is not stated in the GSD standard as a permissable colour. Secondly, I do not know what Working Trials shows you go to but there are Black/Tan dogs that do WT and with success. A Black/Tan dog bred by me, though not owned by me has qualified CDex, UDex, WDex(twice)and is currently doing his TD. He has also won his class first time entered at some obedience shows. His litter sister is a Championship Breed Show winner, also won her Spy Class at Crufts. She herself produced this years Best Puppy & Res CC winner at Crufts. His other litter sister has produced this years Top Winning Youth Male, so Breed Show & Working (Beauty & Brains) can go hand in hand if breeders are selective enough in their choice of breeding stock. I know of many other Black/Tan Shepherds who have attained success in both breed, obedience, WT's or Schutzhund which were also Black/Tan. I suspect there are more B/T coloured dogs than pure blacks because that happens to be the preference of the majority of people. That does not mean that blacks or Sables should be overlooked in the show ring because no dog should be discarded simply on coat and colour alone (unless either/both are of non desireable colour or texture). Many sables have taken top honours in the U.K, indeed some breeders prefer them, but as the majority of dogs being bred are Black/Tan, Black/Gold in colour then it goes without saying that these would be the ones seen taking the most honours in the show ring. As for Black & Sables taking the most honours in the WT rings, I simply could not comment because I do not know if this is actually the case. If it is, perhaps it is because the majority of WT breeders have used a lot of Pure Black or Sable dogs, and as one other person said in their posting, Blacks & Sables are dominent, but only if they are Pure Black/Sable carriers. Regards Sue

It is my understanding that if every dog in a "Show Line's" pedigreed is a SchH3, that dog is considered from a working line. I personally think they are all capable of "working"(whatch out for the incoming mortars now-(smile)).

Silbersee - I have to differ with you...I have seen beautiful black GSDs. My own young male is not quite as handsome as his dad, but pretty close. A koermeister stated that he has "rarely seen a dog of this color to be so correct in size, movement and structure". And he has a handsome head to boot. Also, I have a young sable male - was looked at by a show breeder recently who assumed he was by Champ Dakota. LOL - he is all working, and can jump and turn and twist like a gumby after a toy! Schutzhund titles, unfortunately, are often not earned honestly.

Schutzhund titles, unfortunately, are often not earned honestly. WOW!!!!!!.....is all I will say.