ball drive-show or working lines better? - Page 1

Well, you're looking at somewhat of an issue many show line people are dealing with.  I have seen it also, so you're not the only one. That is why some of us are combining some working blood with show blood to try to increase that drive while not overly compromising our conformation and pigment. Not ALL show lines lack drive, but I've seen plenty that did here in the past few years. I can't coach you how to bring out drive in a dog who acts not interested; it can be improved somewhat, but it won't be to the extent that you see in higher drive working dogs. Does she like food-treats? Try to use that to encourage her to do things for you. If she won't work for treats, either,-?
Working lines are typically higher drive than show lines. Disclaimer: there's exceptions to ANYthing-there ARE some decent working show lines and more laid back working lines.
If you were wanting an easy-going dog for a companion in general, I'd say that's what you got. If you wanted a dog for competition, always look for the bright spirited pup who is willing to check things out and will go after a toy tossed PRIOR to selecting. Only in extreme cases where I have the utmost respect for a knowledgeable breeder with a well-established reputation do I allow them to select my pup. I select my own puppy or I don't buy. I have to live with the dog and train it, not the breeder, so I believe my input is equally important when getting a puppy/dog. They're not all the same.

some dogs have drive others need work no ball drive is not the end of the world. try food . you need to find what pushes his buttons

as far as lines go this differs from dog to dog but working lines have a higher drive

good luck

there are dogs with good ball-drive in both lines........... but you find in the working-lines surely more dogs with high ball-drive and above all with the better constancy in the willing to play.

You can try to teach her the two ball or two hose game.  I use balls on strings because they are easier to throw far, but many use two small pieces of hose (each about 1 ft long). 

Tie up your dog.  Be sure and tie her low so that if she starts jumping she won't go too high and flip.  Now take one of the balls on string and start teasing her with it.  Make it spin around, also put it on the ground and pull it back & forth in front of her.  You need to make this very exciting for her, you need to act very animated, like this is the most fun in the whole world.  Sometimes let it be still right in front of her.  When she looks at it, make it move just  a little,  stiff little jerky movements, make the ball seem to be alive.  As soon as she shows even the slightest interest in the game or the ball, really give her a lot of verbal praise.  What you are trying to acheive is to teach her to play this game with you, and you want her to really want the ball.   It's also always extremely important that you stop this game while she is really into it, before she gets tired of it or bored.  Keep playing it at this stage until she starts to get fired up as soon as you pull out the ball.  This might take a day, a few days or even a couple of weeks.  The key is for you to be very patient and help her turn on the light in her brain.

Next, untie her and start playing the same game, but now let her grab the ball, and when she does  praise her, encourage her, and give some resistance (slight tug on the string while she holds the ball.   If she lets go, immediately start playing the game, spinning the ball around and on the ground to build her drive back up.  AGain, let her get it, but when she gets it, tug a little and give her high praise while she holds on. Also let her win, you let go of the ball, but if she drops it, snatch it away, and again start teasing her with it.   As with the previous step, use patience, it might take a while, but the goal is  for her to want to hold onto the ball and even tug back.   

Once she is really trying to keep the ball herself, let her win every time.  Tell her what a wonderful dog she is for doing this.  The time to bring the 2nd ball in is when she wants to keep the first ball from you.  Pull the 2nd ball out, make it alive, she should drop the first ball, as soon as she does drop the 1st ball, throw the 2nd ball (only a few feet away).  She should run and grab it, as soon as she turns around holding the 2nd ball, whip out the 1st ball, back up a little at the same time encouraging her and calling her, she may come with the ball, she may drop the ball before she gets to you, at this point it doesn't matter, but as soon as she drops the ball, whip out the hidden ball and start the game over.  Do this a lot until she is confident and understands the game to this point.

Next, start making her bring the ball she is holding to you.  If she drops the ball, start pointing to the ball on the ground and run up to it like you are going to grab it, when she grabs it, immediately start backing up and calling her, when she comes with the ball, big praise, whip out the other ball, make it alive, when she drops the one she has toss the one you are holding.  Keep doing this GRADUALLY requiring she bring the ball closer to you before you will throw yours, and GRADUALLY increasing the distance you throw.

(cont'd)

I want to stress it is always extremely important that no matter where you are in teaching her this game, and even once she fully understands it, you MUST always quit before she tires or loses interest.  I can't say enough how important this is.  With a dog with low drive, if you let her get bored or tired first, you will most likely have to go back to the beginning.  You must be able to read your dog.

Not sure about ball drive, but play, prey or retrieve instinct is not isolated to either. They are a somewhat related but different and can either be found alone or together ( a dog with prey, pley and retrieve drive, or say a dog with prey but no retrieve instinct) You can incourage or diminish it to certain degrees, but the innate drive is either there or not you do not teach a dog without retrieve drive to have the drive, you are actually teaching it a task. I would not do it with a puppy and would not do a force retrieve without totally understanding how to or having an actual need to do it.

The play excercises mentioned above may or may not encourage the low drive dog. I wouldnt make a big issue of it or create a negative out of it... if it were an actual need or desire it was something that could have possibly been selected for when getting a pup. Not sure how old your dog is ...but if a pup and new to you perhaps you need more bonding time??

My female is a fetching freak ( i say that lovingly and proud of it) as is her father and her daughter surpised me a while back by bringing a 5lb dumbell that had been left outside! http://hometown.aol.com/shermanranchgsd/pupdates.html (pinkcurlbar)

So, I do believe it is genetic and can be selected for. But again the drive can be encouraged or diminished via training or communications.

Debi

We have 3 showline dogs that absolutely LOVE fetching ANYTHING you throw, and will do so even if they are exhausted.  The 2 older females also have great bitework.

However, ALL of our puppies we imprint at a very young age that interaction with a person is the most fun part of play. I do not allow my puppies to romp excessively with the older dogs.  I usually start with a rope or a ball on a rope, which I will only toss a few feet while I am sitting on the ground. I often start this with the puppy on a lead or long line.  I then encourage the puppy back to me, and when they reach me, I do NOT take the toy away and throw again. I lavishly praise the puppy for coming over to me, then I engage in a game of tug with the toy in which I allow the puppy to win.  The moment the puppy loses interest in the toy, I pick it up and wiggle it along the ground to reengage the puppy. After a while I will throw the toy again and we repeat the cycle. When I see the puppy getting tired, I get him/her to chase a bit along the ground then the toy disappears while the puppy still wants it.  I do this from 8 weeks old.

As the puppy matures and understands the game we can progress to just throwing and bringing it back, but the dog must understand the best part of this game is bringing it back to you, not running away from you. I have never had trouble getting any of my dogs to bring back a toy doing this- but to be fair, my dogs do have very good natural drive.

"Two Ball or Two Hose" game  I outlined is not mine, but an old tried and true German method  which if done right (actually it's difficult to screw this game up),  works on just about any GSD with  a pulse. 

To The Original Poster:

I also neglected to mention that if your other dog likes to play fetch, tie out the GSD and let her watch the game.  Many times getting to watch, then getting the chance to play herself will "flip on her switch".  I would not play the game with both dogs at the same time as to avoid arguments between the dogs.

both dogs lose interest the minute they are outside. the most important thing is i wanted a strong, healthy dog that could run with a bike, backpack groceries, and help me feel safe. i certainly got that. i miss the fetching and retrieving because my heart dog of 8 years loved doing that. spunky had no interest at all in balls as a puppy and when she got older and saw other dogs playing with balls she started bringing them back to me inside.  spunky is 15 months old and i have had her from 10 weeks old. i hope my girl lives a long healthy life, and when she goes, i will be looking hard for another dog that is strong, healthy, and can retrieve. if i cannot find that dog as a purebred gsd, i will probably go back to mixes. thank you everybody for all your feedback, and i enjoy seeing the pictures you have up with your names. have a great day, or night.