Line-breeding Bad or Good? - Page 1

Someone please tell me how line-breeding can be bad and or good ,for example is this good or bad? http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/519118.html     Ziggy v. tiekerhook. I just always thought that breeding like this is how we got the royal family. No offense to our England friends

That's not line-breeding, that's inbreeding of half-siblings (half-bro and half-sis with the same sire-Nick) by definition. http://www.answers.com/inbreeding&r=67 might provide some opinions.
Why do such so close? Personally, that's a bit too close for my comfort unless I was SUPER educated about the bloodlines being in-bred on. It looks like alot of American GSD pedigrees where half siblings are bred, or daughter to father, mother to son, etc. If the genetic outcome was all positive (in this case, it sounds like Ziggy is ideal of what people with that sort of pedigree is looking for-hard full biters, high drive, etc)- definitely not ideal for a novice GSD owner. Close in-breeding has to be ethically paired up with culling of sub-standard individuals. If you're not willing to do that, then a person should reconsider doing such breeding. Nick is by reputation an outstanding working dog who produced his type extremely well. His bloodlines is coveted amongst serious schutzhund enthusiasts. I would say watching and seeing how the ENTIRE litter did would be the ultimate test-if the litter had 6 pups and only this Ziggy was superb, then consider. If the litter had 6 pups and they're all ideal like Ziggy, again, consider. As long as someone is willing to take responsibility fully and handle the situation for the result in in-breeding(good or bad), to each their own. Anything can be hidden recessives in genetics, to be brought out with a vengeance in in-breeding.
There's a past thread on this messageboard discussing the pros/cons to 2-2 breeding on Nick like shown here in Ziggy: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/136883.html#136900

That was very helpful. Thank you very much.

I found this article by Daryl Ehret  helplful when I was wondering its called linebreeding and outcrossing and  I now understand it snot just the current breeding that matters but the combination of  who has come before and who may be used in the future. In other words if the linebreed is used it should be preceded by and followed by an outcross.

http://ddrlegends.com/breedingtype.html

coincidence.  i just happened to be watching the ziggy videos yesterday.  very intense bitch.

if you want to see what this inbreeding has produced, there are 2 ziggy videos on this

webpage.

http://www.tiekerhook.com/index/video.htm

pjp

* i would add that she is also a nice looking female......IMO

A true half brother  half sister breeding (2-2) can be a very powerful tool for setting types and traits with all the caveats that Katjo mentioned.

However folks look closely at this pedigree. The granddams are full siblings (same breeding different litters) so this is really the equivalent to a full brother/sister breeding which is a very different kettle of fish from a 2-2 where there are two "open" lines.

One of the problems with the PDB linebreeding calculation is it does not reconize "litter' linebreeding

Wow that is really tight. Interesting, I for one would like to follow up on this litter, know health and behaviour issues and also good qualities. Anyone own one out of this litter? When I checked the siblings list, only females came up out of  this combo. They picked some nice dogs to line breed on anyway. Hope it all works out.

 Koos has had these lines forever, you would have to have a very good knowledge of your lines to attempt this type of breeding, and Koos does.   

In the dog world linebreeding is perfectly acceptable in most all breeds I know of (except GSD's for some reason). As has been already said, it can set type saving  you many generations of shooting in the dark trying this dog and that dog. If you start with 2 very good related dogs, say half brother and half sister, and if they are  sired by the same great dog (or have the same great dam), then the odds of getting one or two great dogs from that breeding increases many fold over outcrossing them.  You can't start with mediocre dogs from mediocre parents, linebreeding them and get anything worthwhile. Most I know would try to keep the best puppy/puppies from such a breeding and then breed that dog to another linebred dog bred on a different lineage. Most would probably select a different line that complimented the pedigree of their own dogs and one that did not seem to produce the same weaknesses.

Coming from another breed where close linebreeding and even occasional inbreeding is practiced with great success, I am always amazed how much opposition GSD people put forth about linebreeding and inbreeding. It's not like marrying your brother or your sister; these are dogs, not humans. Outcrossing generation after generation will get  you some good dogs from time to time, but not with a lot of consistency. The caveat is linebreeding and inbreeding is not something a novice should ever be doing. It takes a lot of indepth pedigree evaluation and dog savy to make informed decisions.  If I ever thought about breeding a litter of GSD's the last thng I would be looking for would be a bitch with a pedigree that's all over the board. I'd only buy one that was linebred on a specific dog or line that I felt was superior in most ways. If it were easy, there'd be a lot more great dogs to chose from.

So what your saying Blitzen  is that you do not like the "stack your plate" approach to breeding because you feel its hit or miss while breeding to one line is much more accurate.  I dont know if I completely agree with that but i do see your logic. I have seen some great dogs that have many strong sires and damns and zero related relatives in 5 or even 6 generations. I dont see it offen because so many people breed to foundation dogs but the few i have seen have been excellent. Thanks for your input.