Kennel blindness or just don't know the standard? - Page 1

It blows my mind that we so often see ads with photos for young GSDs and mature GSDs on this database which suggest show quality or show potential, etc.  So many of these dogs have humpbacks, short front legs, backs that are too long, incorrect steep croups, poor angulations, incorrect layback, poor withers. Serious faults that are in your face obvious.  And then the usual diatribe accompanying such photos are rediculous claims of so many years breeding improved animals, great grandson of the most famous GSD ever, etc., etc., ect..   But of course the photos showing these gross aberations negate and discredit any such claims. 

Some photos are just poor, that is, the dog is not well positioned or is over stretched, etc.  This is different from photos that show gross aberations displayed in obvious form. These dogs with poor photos just need good photos taken and posted.   And to back up any such show quality or show potential claims one should take and post video clips moving front the front and back and side loose or off lead.

Folks that post ads with these obvious grossities probably just have no clue what the standard is, since I just don't see how kennel blindness could account for lack of recognition of more than minor problems. Major distortions and aberrations from the SV/FCI standard are just too obvious in these gross photos.

GSDs like this with these gross aberations are not show quality or show potential and very far from it.  Besides one would need to evaluate more than their apparent construction in photos, one would have to see them move from all sides in person or on video and take into account their specific age.

The only buyers that would take the bait on these aberations are those that have no idea what the standard is either.  I know of a substantial number of WL and SL breeders of GSDs who use this site who really know and understand the standard.  Many of these folks prefer a GSD that is good all the way around physically with good movement and agility and great temperament rather than a dog with superstar conformation and poor or deficient temperament. I know I do.

Couldn't agree more Preston. Half way through your post I was gonna reply by saying perhaps these sellers are (knowingly?) appealing to the uneducated... until you said it yourself.

The thing is a GSD with superstar conformation & temperament is just that a superstar i.e. rare & will command superstar prices. I also suspect  that such a dog would never be sold via an online ad.

In my admittedly limited experience of buying GSDs, it seems a great deal of the horse trading & assessment of the better dogs goes on at shows and via word of mouth and in such situations it is obviously so much easier to see dogs in the flesh & their movement & temperament. Therefore I don't think it's much of a coincidence that the SL & WL breeders of which you talk prefer and no doubt own a mentally & physically balanced dog, simply because they are involved in this breed community.

But of course such hard foot work is not always attractive or possible for non-breeders who want a GSD and as has been said many times before it is pretty much an imperative to go & see a prospective purchase and that way get a much better feel for what you are buying.

But in the end you can't always protect people from themselves... in any case we all have the freedom of making the wrong choice!

AandA

AandA, I agree with your assertions.  Novices and the chronically "ignorant about the standard" GSD folks are often fooled by concentrating on certain extremes that seem to make the GSD desirable, such as long lower thighs, sickle-hocks, steep croup which can give an illusion of great rear drive, etc.  The older I have gotten and the better I have come to know the standard, the more I realize that a GSD that has correct GSD temperament, is balanced at both ends, has medium but adequate angles and short length, good secondary sex characteristics, nice pigment and coat, adequate movement, etc. and although not an absolute superstar in every aspect, is good all around-- this GSD is actually preferred and worth a lot because they are not that easy to breed or acquire. 

Take the GSD that Oli has featured at the top of this GSD site.  This is what I am referring to.  It doesn't matter if the GSD is WL or SL, if it is reasonably true to the standard and has good and correct GSD temperament, which is working temperament, then this is a preferred GSD and should be highly praised.  Basically I have never like many black GSD because they tend to be fine boned and stringy, and the males tend to have little male type.  However, one of the posters on this forum, Silbersee (sp?) has a young male Onyx which has superb bone, excellent proportions, good angles and excellent male type, as good as any young solid black male around in many years and is very praiseworthy.  This is rare for a solid black to have such nice conformation and shows that one can breed very nice GSDs of any acceptable color if one knows how.  And if you examine the pedigree and know some of the dogs behind this nice young male you realize that it should have very nice working temperament.  Congratulations to the breeder of this fine young dog.

Looks in the GSD isn't everything and temperament and health must come first.  But breeders should strive to breed to the standard which means avoiding extreme distortions.  To do this they should know what their bitches carry and how to compensate if possible, otherwise don't breed the bitch.  Breed for sound, correct GSD temperament, shortness, firmness of back, adequate rear angles but w/o long lower thighs(sickle hocks), proper overall proportions, accceptable front angles, layback & posturnum, adequate, smooth and easy movement, good going and coming, good sex type, coat and color, adequate croup of proper angle and good tailset with non-curled tail, and good joints, staright long bones, good feet, ears that stand, and complete dentition.  Actually it's pretty darned tough to breed dogs that act like a GSD should, look like a GSD should, and move like a GSD should.

Some people that post ads I doubt have ever even read the standard. I especially like the "stud dog" that charges his services by the hour.

Preston, I like your taste, would you critique a dog for me if I PM her to you?

Preston, do you think you could explain in a little bit more detail about black GSD's?

Have you noticed that this is an overall trend in the GSD or just some lines?

Care to post a picture example of what you mean?

I am curious because I have 2 black GSD. I have been told by name people that my female is too small and fine boned. Some have even asked me if she was a black Malinois. However according to the standard she is perfect with the expection that she is 1" OVER the height regulation.
This whole theory is extremely interesting to me and I would love it if you explained further.

I too would love it if you could critique my dog.
Perhaps I will start a critiquing thread!

Evadic, look up Yello vom haus Iris, on this site....gorgeous black.

KCzaja, sure by my opinion is only that, one opinion. What's really important is what you think about your dog overall as a whole animal without getting too nitpicky on any single feature, unless it is grossly distorted. Take a lookat Onyx Silbersee on this web site. 

Heres the photo of the excellent young dog Onyx Silbersee, a solid black:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/521572.html

Evadic22, yes the trend toward lack of bone and male sex type has occurred in solid blacks many years ago and it is now an increasing problem in the west german showlines, and also in some working lines.  There has been a long term trend in too much length of back and loin in working lines, but still a very good selection of short bodied male stallion WL dogs that are very close to the  SV/FCI standard.  There are very few really excellent solid black stud dogs.  When you get a potential superstar like the Onyx dog this is very significant and deserves notice.  If the dog turns out to fulfill his potential, he will probably become a popular stud dog, since solid black is such an attractive color.

Preston:  Sure glad to read your imput on the class of some peoples pics in the ads .

The one that slayed me was the german shepherd on the top of a car...for sale...and then there was one with its rear to the front of our view  and for sale.

Then there is the picture of the female german shepherd with another breeds nose up her butt....Really a true picture of the standard.  lol

I often wondered if anyone else was as annoyed with these ads as I was.

.

Good health & temperament should always be a given with any animal & I agree that looks aren't everything but, for me at least, this is still a major part of a dogs appeal. Funnily enough though, GSDs with a balanced conformation & a self confident character with no extreme attributes e.g. rottie head, over done rear end, hyper drives etc just look ‘right’ & create their own inherent splendour.

As Preston mentioned it’s pretty tough to breed dogs that act, look & move like a GSD but I don’t think all is gloom & doom as I believe there are kennels out there that are striving to, & do, produce such fine GSDs. But precisely because it is tough to breed in this manner these kennels will never be ten a penny and will most probably have a quiet confident ongoing presence within their field… pretty much the same attribute so admired in the GSD!

Just as an aside, I have a friend with a lurcher who is great mates with our GSD & they really love to hammer around a field, chasing & shoulder barging each other. It's great to see the dogs just being... well dogs really. But the reason I mention this is that the lurcher also just looks right and has that same inherent beauty. Obviously she is completely different to a GSD with fine bones, steep front end & non of the angulation at the rear but what she does have is that same physical & mental balance and lack of extremes but contained within her own conformation.

Apologies for the rambling on but I’m at work & winding down to get ready for my upcoming holiday next week, hurrah!

AandA