Hip Score Database required

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by beepy on 06 May 2008 - 11:05

I would find it incredibly helpful if there could be a hipscore database that not only showed the scores of a dog's progeny but of several generations worth.

I have seen it where you have a dog who throws good hips but only for bad hips to occur further down the genetic line. If there was a database of all dogs and their relevant parentage it would be extremely benficial for the breed. I know some breeders post the results of their stock on their websites as well as those who have moved on to new homes, showing the consistency of their breeding through generations but with the amount of dogs moving globally this history is hard to track. Also with many kennels only having one or so generation of a line this history is impossible to see.

It could then have other genetic issues added along the way and then it would be a one stop place for all breeders both big and small alike when considering breeding and which dog to use.

If futher information such as colour, size, coat type etc was also added not only would it be a fantastic aid for today but a great historic log for the future.

Who out there has the time/knowledge and ability to do this? - Please, please do so. There is much being said about genetic illnesses and this would be the ideal place to research genetics - more than pedigrees. Think how good it would be for the GSD as a breed.

by Bob-O on 06 May 2008 - 11:05

Beepy, such a database already exists and is available on the "S.V. Genetics" CD-ROM that is published each quarter. One can also subscribe to this service as well as other databases and records maintained by the S.V.. Take a look at this web page: http://www.sv-shop.com/shop/index.php?cPath=28&osCsid=293f738d7fa1282b0422713724a0209a and you will see some of the offerings.

Best Regards,

Bob-O

by beepy on 06 May 2008 - 11:05

Does this take into account multi national statistics from systems such as the BVA - or only those given by breeders?

by Sunsilver on 06 May 2008 - 11:05

It would be nice if Oli could change the database here so we can input that info. Also, right now the database won't accept Penn Hip data, only OFA or the SV rating system.

by beepy on 06 May 2008 - 12:05

What I was thinking was input from the scoring systems so that all dogs scored affected the parents ratings. Whats the point in only recognising 3 good scores when there is a possibility of 10 or more bad ones?

It would be bril the scoring systems got together with the database and that info was combined and then made available - bring all genetic information to the forefront and give people the full facts.

Maybe other faults/good points could also be highlighted. I have seen mentioned on this forum, feet shape, height, pigment etc. information of which would benefit breeders in the future when considering the genetics behind the dog.

by Wildmoor on 06 May 2008 - 22:05

I have all the UK data and some from other countries worldwide, not sure if there is a way of intergrating the different scoring systems though, although it would be a good idea.

Pam

by TIG on 07 May 2008 - 02:05

Wildomoor, Does Willis still issue a report that shows sire production on the hips? I believe his early reports were the first to definitively show that hip score does NOT always equate into production - ie some of the better scored dogs produced worse than some of the dogs with higher scores ( merely confirming that xray is the phenotype not the genotype)

Beepy are you familiar with the German ZW system? It does incorporate progeny ratings into the score. You may also wish to check www.gsddata.com . This shows the progeny production by % in each hip category and in each ZW grouping. My only concern is the lack of information on where he is getting the hip information. As in all web databases my recomendation is the old Reagan saying 'trust but verify".

My wish list includes a unified HD database showing the scores for all the FCI countries. Finding out non German hip scores can be a real bear and I have not found a good way of verifying the info I get.

by beepy on 07 May 2008 - 08:05

TIG - it is because of the list that Willis produced that I made my request. It was such an easy way to look at hips scores against production, although if I remember correctly it stopped at 1st generation offspring. Despite looking on line I'm only finding the old one and no updated versions.

It is also quality of information that made me suggest a tie in with the scoring systems - that way data should be accurate and not manipulated to suit.

It would be nice I guess as well if a rogue score was highlighted rather than affecting things as a whole, ie. a dog that consistently throws good hips is not too severely affected by the odd very bad score - someway of showing this as an anomaly.

Oh well wishes and all.

by Speaknow on 07 May 2008 - 10:05

Like you, I’d like to see hip scores along with inbreeding coefficients, Tig. Also, I believe Dr. Willis’ health is not what it once was. You may find his 2000-year remarks informative. The GSD covers the full range from 0 to 106 with an arithmetic mean of 18.65 which makes it 13th worst breed (among 75 breeds with at least 40 scored). Progress is minimal but that is not a reflection of the merits of the scheme but simply illustrates that selection is not being practiced to any degree. In countries where schemes involve compulsion i.e. that one cannot breed from (and register) specific levels of hip status (as in Scandinavia) or where there is peer and club pressure such that untested dogs cannot be shown (as with the SV) there is evidence of progress. However in the UK and USA where breeders are free to do as they please progress is not usually seen and there is minimal advance. Nevertheless some 70+ % of GSD score 15 or better and thus would experience no problem with their hips. Kennels which stay out of the scheme do not affect it but among scoring kennels selective scoring has an adverse effect. This applies to early (puppy) screening where poor ones are never scored as well as failure to submit specific animals because they look poor on X-ray. Some argue that it is unimportant as long as these dogs are not bred from but if poor dogs are deliberately not submitted the net result is that specific sires (dams) may look better than they are and this will affect German breeding values as much as ours. In Germany up to a third of dogs registered are hip graded but in Britain we are operating at <10% in many breeds though BMD have scored 24% of all registrations since the breed started in 1969 and currently are closer to 30%. Nevertheless it can be seen that annual progress is not huge and cannot be unless rigid selection criteria are enforced (and I am not advocating that). In GSD we have a situation in which many breeders use scores higher than breed mean and remember that the mean at which 50% of the breed is obtained is about 4 points lower than the 18.65 or closer to 14 than 19. In addition sires that are not good producers or average producers are often widely used. I am not disputing the fact that features other than hips must be considered and that there are occasions when dogs that are not the best hip animals may have to be used. Nevertheless, HD will only improve by selection for it. Failure to select on a breed scale is a feature of the breeders not the scheme. Most breeders blame the tools but it is their use of the tools which is at fault.

by Held on 07 May 2008 - 16:05

what is the purpose of all this because you can have all the data in the world you still have problems with hips.the reason for this is that the data alone does not fix any thing there are lot of other varieables when comes to hips it is not black and white science.at the end of the day mother nature will only give you what mother nature will give.also keep in mind that real good breeder who is trying to produce a total dog is not going to focus only on hips, for this kind of thinking will not produce a total dog.good example of this is Grim Z P S.his father had not so ideal hips if you had not bread him to Grims mother there would be no Grim and if there is no Grim you would not have had so many good dogs that came out of him.hope this helps in some way thanx.

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