Training question in grip improvement - Page 1

Hi you all,

I could use some advise on how to get my young female to hold on. She has lots of drive and goes for anything that moves. But as soon as she has it (tug, puppy sleeve, burlap), she lets go and that is it.  This female is 17 months old and bounces off the walls, but she does not seem to grasp the idea holding on and putting up a fight. If she was human, I would say that she has a short attention span. We are so frustrated that we are ready to give up. But before I do that, I want to see if anybody has some ideas.

Chris

Chirs:  If you maintain pressure, pulling against her does she hold on or are you saying she bites and releases?

She bites and releases immediately. That is so frustrating. She acts like she really wants it bad  and is hyper. Onceshe bites into it, she spits it out. As soon as it moves again, she repeats the same thing over and over again. We have tried and tried. Terrible!

Have you first checked her mouth?  Check her mouth and teeth for soreness, misaligned teeth, any sort of infection going on.  If her mouth is 100% clear, then it could be just training, or - worst scenario - could be simply a poor genetic grip behavior.  Good genetic grip behavior I know can be seen clearly (full, calm grips, centered on the sleeve/tug/pillow, not letting go) by that age, maybe poor genetic grip behavior can also be seen.  But I expect if you make sure there is nothing wrong with her mouth, nothing hurting her to bite and grip - then try putting her on a harness, back-tying her, give a lot of motion and get her really going for the tug, let her catch it then immediately pull back gently, at first only for a split second, then release, as she holds on better give her more and more length of time with the tugging before release/reward.  Hopefully she will learn to fight, hold on and win/carry.

molly

I have a 12-year-old, spayed female with a SchH1. Both of her parents are HGH. She will also go for anything that moves. However, she would just as soon drop the sleeve (not carry her prey for more than a few steps) and bite the helper instead! Butt bites are best!! When she was a young adult, a dumb club helper tried to force her into defense by whipping her feet

I elected not to pursue a breed survey rather than to pressure her further to achieve something that was not "there" genetically. Had it been readily available in the USA when she was younger, the HGH would have been a better training option--in hindsight.

I was training a dog that was the same way.  She would bite anything that moved then just let go.  If it moved it got bit, then she just let go.  So we switched her bite training to more agitation than prey drive.  That made all the difference in the world. I thought for sure this dog would never bite and hold.  Now once she bites she holds.  You may want to try that.  But I do agree with Molly.  Check her mouth.  A guy in our training club had a dog with a weak bite, it used to be good and strong then it went soft.  We checked his mouth and he had a large piece of wood that was embedded in the roof of his mouth.  His owner was not sure how long it was there but it sure made a difference once it was out.

Shawn

I have seen commitment to the bite and pulling back on the sleeve taught by placing the dog tied out and on a long bungee.

I would not right off this dog yet, she is young and there is also the issue of her hormones.  She could be working not in prey drive,  I would suggest lots of big prey moves,  work her in all prey, do misses with her to frustrate her.  Of course, I could be wrong but it's worth a try!

Louise just brought up the subject of hormones in an entirely different subject so they were on my mind.

Chris,

Did you remember to sign the petition?

This behavior may or may not have to do something with the lack of or presence of an appropriate and genetically based grip. In my experience, many dogs who exhibit such behavior are not confident enough with the person doing the work. The first thing to try is having the dog work with someone else that it knows but does not have a lot of experience with, especially if that experience has been obedience required of the dog.

It sounds counter intuitive, but even one who is normally with the dog can, in fact, be too much initially for the dog to challenge. If as described, the dog has plenty of prey drive, then this is most likely the issue, barring any sort of mouth or tooth issue such as an injury, cracked tooth etc.

One way to deal with this is to put a tup or a ball on the end of a flexible buggy or horse whip. This puts the handler in question well away from the dog. One moves the tug or ball around in a circle, keeping it just ahead of the dog. It cannot be too easy for the dog to get it, nor does one want to make it so frustrating for the dog it will give up.  The tug or ball MUST remain live. Initially, once the dog gets the tug, just pull from the pole. Eventually, one lets go of the pole and grabs the line, at first nearest the pole and pulls and keeps it live. The idea is that hopefully the dog will gain confidence in holding onto the object and as it does, one can slowly down the line to where the tug is. This building confidence can take several weeks to longer, depending on the dog. This is one way Bernhard Flinks builds drive and grip. There are additional steps once this is working, but I won't go into that here.

Another good way to deal with this kind of problem is to tie the dog on a pole. Bring a second dog out to actually work doing the same thing above, or just "fishing" with the tug or ball. It can be on a leash if there is the possibility of a fight and in that case, keep it on the other side of the person swinging the tug. One wants a fanatical second dog who could care less about the dog on the pole but wants the toy. If one can get the dog who is not biting really revved up, then swing the object past it on the pole. 

I have seen dogs take a long time to build confidence like this, but, if the dog has a good prey drive, my bet is that I could get the appropriate behavior out of the dog. There is always the possibility that despite everything else being desired in a good working dog, that indeed, a given dog displaying such behavior will not ever develop confidence, but, in my experience, it is rare. I am not ever afraid either to get down on the ground level with the dog, and try to make something it loves to chase come alive and bite and then pull a bit. Obviously, one must "feel" out how much to tug and pull so that one does not overwhelm the dog. It should always win. With the right "touch" eventually the dog should become more and more confident and want to pull harder and harder. I don't look at the dog, and I stay on the ground as long as necessary.

At this age, if you cannot get some hint of success, you may have to cut your losses. It becomes an issue of how much time and effort to put into a given dog who does not simply do this naturally and/or have the confidence to do it.