Recessive Gene Question - Page 1

Someone I knew had a deposit on a solid black pup they were so anxious to receive, long story short the time came closer the pup was ready to go to her new home and the buyer requested updated photos.  When the photo came the pup had a huge white diamond shaped marking on it's chest- clearly was not disclosed to the buyer at any point.  So I asked my friend what the initial photo looked like and they said when they were holding the puppies their hands covered the pups chest so they had NO idea of the white spot.  The buyer requested their deposit back and the seller was ok with that but wanted to know why the buyer was making such a fuss over the white spot. lol  The buyer stated this pup was being purchased with the hopes it would be of breeding quality and the white spot was not something he would ever breed as this was probably a recessive gene carried by one of the parents since this was not the only pup in the litter that had this white patch.  The breeder disagreed.

I was always told that white on a GSD was a recessive trait and should never be used for future breeding.  Is that correct or is this something that can be just a fluke one time deal that may never happen again? 

Alot of solid black dogs have the white on the chest as a pup.

Tell your friend to get a life and buy some Just For Men. 

It would depend on how large the white patch is, for me. Small amounts of white on the chest, while not desirable, are not unusual either.  If the amount of white on a puppy was larger than my palm, it would not be my first choice as a puppy, but if I liked everything else about the puppy, it wouldn't stop me from keeping/getting the puppy.

A lot of puppies have very small amounts of white on their chest --like a quarter inch spot--and it diminishes or becomes almost invisible as they mature, especially if the dog is sable or black and tan. Generally speaking, anything over an inch or so as a puppy will still be visible on the adult.

Genetically the white spotting gene is common in the breed and as long as it stays to a minimal amount, it's not considered a matter of great concern.

That said, some of the unhealthiest dogs/puppies I have seen from otherwise very fine-producing mothers/fathers have had large amounts of white, covering the throat and down to the chest or one white paw, like a sock -- these puppies had heart murmurs, bad bites, and other problems that never showed up in any other puppies produced by that sire and dam.

I recently saw a puppy advertised on this site that had  white blaze--was cool looking, but definitely a disqualifying fault for show or breeding.

LOL!  You're too funny!  But seriously if you were looking for a dog as a breeding prospect this would be a turn off right?  I'm just trying to understand a little more how the genetics play out.  Are you saying a solid black pup that is born with white on the chest (alot of white, not just a few hairs or small tiny sport) will "outgrow the white patch"?  He said if he were just looking for a working prospect then the mark would not have bothered him so much but because it would have been for potential breeding it was a turn off.

I must be equally shallow lol  I think I would have 86'd that deal too.  Bad enough I color my own hair I'll be damned if I gotta do my dogs.

My first black GSD puppy that I went to purchase was 4 hours away one direction and was suppose to be SOLID black. I asked and stressed the point of SOLID. The black female puppy had a patch of white on her chest and had the breeders conditions not been so bad I would have walked away. Instead I bought the puppy raised and trained her, she ended up looking like a small black fox with a large white patch on her chest that didn't go away but did slowly move farther down her chest. I spayed and rehomed her and learned my lesson.

Several breeders that I have seen either have true SOLID blacks or blacks with white not only on the chest but also some on the feet. I was told after the fiasco of the black female puppy that I bought that white is a fault and should be avoided if you desire to breed or show.

This is the black female puppy I bought.

This is a puppy I saw with a lot of white.

k9sar-  The second pup you posted a picture of has the same amount of white on it's chest as the one my friend backed out of and now hearing giblaut's take on this topic I'm glad he decided to pass.  I gotta admitt though the white chest looks adoreable on those pups but definately not what I'd expect to be a SOLID black.

Agar Do you have a copy of either of the Willis books? If not I recommend both of them.

There are two spotting patterns in the GSD.  What is known as Irish spotting is small amounts of white on puppies ( often toes and no not the amount shown above) that disappers by the time they are 8-12 weeks old.

There is a separate spotting pattern that shows up as large white chest spots and/or "socks" of variable length on one or more feet. The chest spot is fairly common in American showlines and the socks show up periodically with or without it.  My observation has been that it appears to be one of those things that will increase in size and incidence over time if attention is not paid to it.

I saw the pups here: http://www.prestigek9.com/Puppies.html very cute:-) but I wouldn't buy it if I was thinking of future breeding

Wow, that is alot of white... If for breeding, no..  Years of training and titling you need to get the pup you want..

No, I mean, if it was a LOT of white, but still no bigger than my palm at 8 weeks, I'd be very unlikely to pick that dog for a breeding prospect. But if the dog were really remarkable otherwise, it wouldn't automatically make me walk away. Anything more than that.... :/

But if were smaller than that, around a square inch or less, I wouldn't care. Also, in my experience, if it's smaller than a 1/2 inch square then at adulthood, it's almost invisible on a sable or B/T dog. On a black or bicolor, it's going to be more noticeable.