2008 USA Sieger Show - Page 3

TIG,

I guess the breeder neglected to tell them the fact that the bitch was a longcoat!

Mystere,

Yes, I'm the one with the VA dog that's declared for Universal. It's a long way from San Jose to Texas. There's some stiff competition on their way there. There are 4 dogs with a 5 point advantage and the rest have a working background. If you would,,, have a little patience as we progress. He goes to his handler to prepare tomorrow. In case you hadn't noticed, I'm a white guy that can't dance. He deserves a handler better than me.

A little background in case you're interested. I was training one day and one of the people there commented; If they had that dog, They could take it to Universal Sieger. I thought about it. Maybe he could follow in his Uncle's, Triumph Gucci's,  footsteps. He's a Quartz Grandson, one of the better producers of working ability in the conformation lines. You may have seen the video of his daughter. He's producing some very nice temperment and ability for work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvKecC9_LpI

So we will see how things go with his handler over the next few weeks while they sort themselves out.

TJG,

Thanks for running the numbers. Actually I should have made myself clearer. The working males are not really the ones I was talking about when it comes to the accomplishments of the American breeders. Even though both the Sieger and Siegerin are American bred, I was referring to the young classes. There is a very high percentage of US bred dogs placing well this year.

For most people SG17 and V29 is a very good place in the conformation world. How can a dog be V in one country and still be considered VA in another? Simple, The judge looks at the class and decides which dogs he/she feels has the best potential to produce the best offspring. Things like genetics, production, and individual dogs are considered.  Othervise there would just be the few VA dogs in Germany. Typically dogs within the first 80 V's at the German Sieger show have a chance to go VA in other countries.

Universal Sieger trained and trialed by a handler? Pardon my French, that's complete BS and once again reflects that "money talks", IMO. Hell, any of my titled males could possibly be Universal Sieger if I had the money for a handler.

Dog1 - we have been doing the puppy class thing for decades but somehow they never grow up to end up in those V and VAs in the working dog class. In my view there is a reason for that - stated above.  We obviously come from two very different viewpoints of this whole thing and need to agree to disagree.

I also still think IF there is one universal standard a V is a V. Anything else is marketing to title hungry foreigners.

I agree with TIG regarding the definition of V and VA. IOW, a dog that goes VA in the United States should be able to do so in Germany.

The only dog of that quality that I've seen in recent years has been Bazi. I truly expect Bazi to go VA in Germany--maybe not this year--depends on how many titled dogs are in his Progeny Group.

He is of correct size and has an excellent work ethic--JMHO.

Well  Louise, since someone else titled your dog I guess we're in the same boat. Both of our dogs are products of hired trainers.  Money talks as we all know of Nimo's accomplishments. I'm struggling a little to see why it's BS when someone wants to advance their dog beyond their handling abilities, but it's not BS when your dog and all you promote him to be is a product of the exact same process? 

Anyhow,,,, We can all agree to disagree, this thread is not meant to be adversarial, it's about the sieger show.

Dream on Dog 1. What you write is pure bunk. A dog who is SG 17 or V 29 in Germany is certainly not what I consider a high placement in Germany and many of those dogs too fade into the sunset and many are sold to third world countries. It is a no brainer that one can often makes a higher place in a much smaller pond. And yes, if one can rent a handler who knows the tricks and the judges and can push past people, all the better. In the puppy classes, as we all know, placement means nothing unless it is a P or LP. Most of the time those VP pups also fade into the sunset and are sold to the first sucker who comes along.

This was a small show compared to the BSZS. And the high percentage of VAs awarded, had they been justified, would have been fine. There is no rule about how many VAs or Vs should be awarded. But the sheer lack of numbers being presented in this show would tell even a simpleton that something is not quite right when almost 40% of the females are VA and higher yet with the males. If they were truly of all around high calibre that would be one thing.  Most of the dogs shown would never even get to the top 50 in Germany. Why? Because for one thing,  the number of dogs shown is much, much higher and yes, because of politics there as well. Even those Americans who pay large sums of money to German handlers in the BSZS find their dog in the lower rings. 

This SS, like most US Sieger Shows happened in a small pond, despite the fact that we are a huge country. What the heck does that have to do with anything? Nothing. We simply do not have the numbers of GSDs involved in SchH and show and never, ever will. 

TIG has pointed out very clearly serious flaws in your quasi statistical analysis. Talking about how far we have come in 10 years is a joke. For what it is worth, I frankly don't care if a dog was bred in Germany, the US or on Mars. I want to see the rules followed, dogs not slinking to the helper on their bellies, dogs with some fire in their bite work, some correct heeling, "aus" meaning "aus",  dogs not coming off the sleeve, the show judge measuring height, (not committee members), dogs not running from the helper, dogs heeling the correct distance (there is a correct required distance that in my events has always been measured out by our judges) etc. etc. etc. I also want to see the best judges and too often we are not seeing that. And by this I do NOT mean that the judges should be our organizational judges. Had they the qualifications, it would be one thing, but with one exception, they do not. 

Dog are not cars and using that analogy is silly. And while people can think of and prefer a variety of qualities in coat, color, minor differences in conformation etc., there should be and is one single standard for the breed and one set of rules. Rationalizing it all away to suit ones own purposes serves no purpose but to maintain the status quo. If what you want is really so different than what those of us want who say the bite work was, for the most part, pathetic, then we are really in serious trouble. But I suppose there is a different perspective from one who does little training and has to send a dog out for training.

There are a lot of problems that honest owners/handlers face when trying to compete in this sport. There are not enough clubs in many areas. There certainly is a critical lack of highly skilled helpers, including in my area. Owner/handlers often only want to do the least amount of work with their dog that they can get away with because it is so time consuming to really learn to train your own dog. Traveling to distant shows is expensive, just as is participating in the sport in general. It is tough, tough, tough to do this and I don't doubt this. 

But those are REAL difficulties and they should in no way prevent us from seeing that there are some very serious problems and some ser

I'll agree that dogs have off days, but when the majority of dogs are clearly frightened, in complete avoidance, acting like nothing's going on, scared of their handler, or just plain terrible at the work, several things are not right and if alarms are not ringing in your head, I think you're blind to the problem.  A Jack Russell can outdo most of those GSDs at the SS!  Many of those dogs resembled ferrets in how low-slung they were, slinking across the ground.  The obedience was nearly nonexistent as well.  This was pathetic.  I've seen much better at local club practice out of a Catahoula.  I could probably count on one hand the number of dogs that should get sufficient alone; most should have been scratched (and the handler who scares the crap out of his dog should simply get out of the sport). 

Your defenses are futile and I am saddened to see anyone go to such lengths to defend this farce.  I know less than nothing about the sport but I do know that most of those dogs were not GSDs; they were ginormous, weak-nerved labradoodle/ferret hybrids in GSD costumes.  I will say that there were a few that I enjoyed watching, but the rest were a travesty.  Now if most were strong and a few fell apart, that's just the luck of the draw when dealing with living things and that is no harm, no foul.  This was a disaster.  Poor dogs, poor breed.

Dog1: Well  Louise, since someone else titled your dog I guess we're in the same boat.....

Well, let me ask you how many dogs you have schutzhund titled? Oh, I thought so. I did title Mr. Nimo's grandsire to SchH3 and to an AKC CD and CDX (at nearly 9 years of age).

At least, I put the AD and a thorough foundation training (protection, tracking, obedience--including jumping and the dumbbell) on Nimo and Zeek. Otherwise, how could Heidi have titled them faster than she has any other male dogs?? I also trained and handled Nimo for his BS for life (you were there and saw it) and for 3 different "sieger show" performance tests.

I chose not to title the younger dogs myself because training/titling at local clubs was unreliable. I can't tell you how many clubs (where I was a member) formed splinter groups or altogether disbanded. I didn't want my younger boys to be 8 years old when they finished their titles.

Dog1: I'm struggling a little to see why it's BS when someone wants to advance their dog beyond their handling abilities.

Pardon me--I don't think so. When I trained and handled the grandsire in his SchH2, he had the highest combined score as well as the highest scores in tracking and protection. Not too shabby for an 8-year-old dog with his "mom" who was past 60.

I handled and trained several dogs (2 of which were breed champions) to AKC UD's and UDT's. My first bitch completed her AKC UD when she was only 13 months old. My Ch Tucker Hill's Oracle UDT was twice highest scoring champion at GSDCA National Specialty shows and won the Dog World Magazine award for completing one title in 3 straight trials with all scores above 195 (out of a possible 200).

I trained and handled my last AKC female to her Herding Started title (she was the first GSD in the country so titled) and to one high scoring dog in herding trial. She also completed the equivalent of an HGH when she was 9 years old.

IOW, although not a born athlete, I have many decades of successfully titling and handling dogs.

Trust me, if your dog has a "bought" Universal Sieger title, neither you nor the dog will be taken seriously.

However, why not have the courage

Oops!

Why not have the courage to train and handle your dog yourself to Universal Sieger--if it can be done. It's all about developing a wonderful, trusting relationship with your dog when you and he learn to work as a team!!