2008 USA Sieger Show - Page 2

Imports and American Bred dogs:

 

Does it take an Import to win? Isn't the quality better in Germany? The simple answer is yes.

 

What does that mean to me. If I have the best resources, enough money and am at the right place at the right time, I might get something better. If you do what then? You just bought super pup destined to be the next world champion. What will you do with it? How will you get it there? Can you even get it titled and into the working class?

Meanwhile 10 pups that are just as good go to pet homes in the US because someone  that wants to compete thinks they can get something better buying sight unseen on the internet.

Look around at the placings and quality of animals we have here. We are becoming breeders. We are learning and producing better each year. When you decide on a US dog, there's a good chance some support comes with it.

I'll share a story.

I get a call from a new person excited about the breed and doing their homework. They pick my brain, I'm sure others too. They go to see dogs that interest them. They  focus on the female  travel across the country  and buy a pup.  Research pays off. Pups a good pup.  They go to a regional show where the owner of the pups father handles the pup and takes time to explain about showing, what's involved, what's needed, how to get started. The pup is successful and the owners who bought it mainly for a pet are hooked. They cancel their travel plans and enter the pup in the sieger show. The next few weeks are spent getting the pup ready for the big event. This is their little boy going to their second show. They fly the pup to San Jose and spend a weekend participating. They are introduced to the fun and excitement that the breed has to offer. The owner of their puppy's father sets them up with a top handler. The pup performs flawlessly and places #2 in the country. This pup has a chance and the new owners are enjoying their US bred dog.

Think of  what support can mean and how the breed in this country can be better when efforts combine. Not too long ago this was uncommon. Breeders stuck to themselves and there was no cooperation. Look at the German example. There is no successful dog in Germany that started from a pup and achieved anything without the support of others. German Shepherds are a team sport. Think about that as you decide where to get your next dog.

Measurements:

 

The day of the oversized dog is over. All dogs were measured twice in the stand for exam. I have seen most of the dogs at this show measured at other shows. The size standard is strictly enforced.

This pup has a chance and the new owners are enjoying their US bred dog.

Another HUGE plus for these recently "hooked" enthusaists:  The owners of both the mother and the father, both based in the US, have and will turn upside down and backwards to help the novice owners achieve as much success as they and their dog can manage for years to come by directing them to good clubs, handlers, helpers, etc., advising them about anything and everything pertaining to the health, training, conditioning, etc., ... NURTURING them to insure they enjoy as much success as possible in the sport with their dog throughout the dog's career and for the entire life of the dog! (likely longer...)

Unless they purchased the dog from one of the few importers who really care about the sport in this country, the dogs they import and the people who buy them, had these people purchased the dog online directly from Germany, chances are they would be "on their own" from the minute the pup was dropped at Frankfurt Lufthafen. How different might their first experiences be in that case, and what are the chances they would continue on in the sport had they invested the time, effort and enthusiasm only to be disappointed all by themselves, no support from anyone, when their class concluded?

Just a point to ponder...

 

This pup has a chance and the new owners are enjoying their US bred dog.

Sorry, I meant to say this pup is very promising, finished near the top of his class, and has a good chance of achieving continued success in future, thanks to the experience, wisdom and dedication of the breeder and the owner of the father of their AMERICAN Bred dog. :-D

We may have a ways to go in this country, but compared to 10 years ago... we have come a long, LONG way in a comparitively short time, and I for one see the overall quality of our dogs and our training steadily improving every year.

Wait a minute. I see a working line dog failed a trial. How can that be?

Must've been someone else's dog. I know none of MY working line dogs EVER failed a performance test.  That single-digit score in tracking Onyx got in Maine was a mis-print in the magazine. HONEST!

ROTFLMAO

Yours truly, Joe Hundai

Sorry, we haven't come that far if we can't FOLLOW THE RULES!!!!!

 

If I were selling a pup with great potential, I would hope that the owners would not spend their money frivolously, subjecting the pup to the unnecessary stress of air travel, and being ripped of by a handler who is very probably German for a silly high place in a meaningless puppy class. What the heck if the pup is going through an awkward growth period, is not adequately ring trained, and doesn't place high? How does the owner deal with these disappointments?

Instead, I would advise the owners to not to put all their eggs into one basket and to save their money for a raw diet, joining USA and a local club, for paying field fees, for preliminary hip and elbow xrays (by a vet who does not use general anesthesia), getting "a" stamp xrays at the age of one year, for advanced training/titling costs, and for possibly buying a dog-friendly vehicle.

As for the improvement in American-bred German dogs, I find that, since my my first California USA Sieger Show in 1993, they are developing proportions that are not harmonious, excessive rear angulation and movement with locked/sickle hocks, poor reach, oversize, and negligible improvement in working drive. Not for a moment, do I believe that all dogs were measured correctly in San Jose any more than that their performance tests were judged accurately and impartially.

The only reason there were more American-bred, winning dogs in San Jose is because the Germans stayed away from the show in droves because the judges lack the credibility for judging at a prestigious show. Would you be excited about going to the German SS if the same judges were judging the Working Classes. Perhaps so, if your dogs did well last weekend.....

Dog1: Do you own one od the VA dogs? Is it one of the dogs that was declared for Universal Sieger? If so, has the dog been trialed in a USA trial? Will it be, when and where? Which regional? DO you really plan to enter the USA National Championship? Just curious...

Dog1 re history quote "The top placing dogs were imports. Why?, we couldn't breed a good dog here it seemed. If we could we couldn't train it and show it .......Fast forward to the present and things have changed."

I think if you look at the statistics not much has changed. This is for the working dog class. Dogs entered - % that were European bred ( primarily Germany, 1 Norway, 1 Czech) = 60%      VA's %European bred = 60%   V's %European bred = 56.25%  But ah you say 40% were "American bred" ( including Canada here). Well not really. Lets look at the breeding of these "American bred"  dogs. There are 3 possibilities. 1. bred either from from two imports or one foreign dog and one import - call this F1 import generations -these are still European bred dogs for all intensive purposes( which we have been doing for decades) 2. Bred from an import or foreign dog and one "homegrown" ( presuming Am Bred if has Am owners kennel name on it. May not be so but ok for this purpose) - call this one parent AmBred (AB). 3. Bred from two American bred dogs - this would be a true "American bred dog" ( and by the way not even looking for pedigree depth here this is only requiring 1 generation to be truly AB).

So how does that 40% " American bred" really shake out.  VAs = 4 dogs. Two are #1 F1 imports essentially European bred. Two are #2 having one AB parent. There are NO #3 - true AB dogs where both parents were born in the U.S. So ONLY 20% (2 out of 10) can claim even some small relationship to breeding a good dog here (if the dogs shown are your definition of a good dog). The two VA's that fall into this category were VA 1 and 9. ALL the rest of the VA's are European dogs even tho the breeder may have lived in the U.S.   V's = 7 dogs. Four are #1 F1 imports. Three are #2 - 1 parent AB. Once again there are NO #3 true AB dog's. Three #2s = 18.75% of the V dogs. What ratings did these dogs get - V6,8,13 not exactly stellar if we re claiming success for "American" dogs. The rest again are "European " dogs.

Quote Dog1 "Quality you ask? The VA7 male was SG17 and V29 at the sieger show in Germany. There are some excellent dogs in the VA line up this year"  Maybe this is a stupid stupid question. If the highest Yappo could achieve in Germany is a V29 what magic happened overnight to transform him into VA quality? If SV judges are judging by SV standards which it is claimed AND it is also claimed they are rigorous in the uniformity of their judging who was wrong - the judge in Germany or the judge here. A V dog is a V dog and calling it something else doesn't change that fact and to me is an essential dishonesty. You all keep clamoring about the one universal standard. Either it is or it isn't.

I won't get into the quality of the work other than to say I found it truly truly appalling and if as Dee's Wolf says the rules were applied as written we would have ended up with less than 5 dogs who could have qualified for a V or VA. I've been to a number of the Sieger shows over the years and if this is progress - god help us.

If we had made true progress we would have dogs that had a pedigree filled with true "American bred" dogs and peppered with the occassional import. If we had made progress OUR Sieger show would be judged by OUR judges. Let's face it these national seiger shows using SV judges were created and continue for one purpose - To continue and further the exportation of the SV system under SV control which is designed to continue and further the wholesale exportation of German bred GSDs world wide. We are talking big business and heavy commercialization of the breed here.

A few years back the natives got restless because the awards always seemed to go to German bred and owned dogs . So as a sop a few VA's were given to German bred and American owned dogs. If  you look at the statistics above that's still pretty much were we are today. If you are still breeding F1 imports and not using your own stock you have made no real progress.

Finally I too will share a story.

I met a family at the show on Sunday. A nice family with several kids and a 5 month old GSD that they had bought from one of the successful "American Bred" kennels present at the show. This too was their first GSD. They were proud to tell me how the breeder had said the dog was show quality and they wanted to learn more about how things were done and wanted to know about training etc.  Nice Nice people. The bitch was a sweetie also - oh btw she was a longcoat.

Take the advice and SS description from where it comes and for what it is worth.  Randy has always been an ambassador for the showlines and the show judges.  He is very diplomatic and seeks always to show the GSD world that he is a man of integrity and good sense.  His dog Renaldo is no slouch by any means and is a real contender for Universal Sieger. 

However, Randy is a show lines broker of VERY expensive dogs.  Also, if you are at a north American Sieger Show, either WDA or USA, Randy can get you a top German handler at considerable cost, and by that, a better chance of standing forward in the final placement.  Randy is the consummate politician and a true ambassador for the German show scene.