Enlarged Heart in GSD - Page 1

Sorry to start a new thead, but didn't want the 2 to get confused.

I was wondering if anyone in the GSD breed has had any problems with ENLARGED HEARTS?  My vet has not ruled out anything environmental, and they are starting to concentrate on the fact that his heart is enlarged.    They are not necessarily saying it's anything genetic, are still running a few test, and we have an appt., with an internal medicine specialist tomorrow, providing my vet feels he is stable enouhg to handle the almost 2 hr ride. 

I have been researching online, and have found a few things, but not all symptons are alike.  And the fact that he is 4 yrs old, and just showing symptoms has them stumped as well.  (What's the point in paying the "experts" so much if they can't figure it out!!! ) 

Shiva comes from very good lines, and I don't feel it is "genetic"!!  I've contacted the breeder, and there was only one litter produced with this Sire/Dam, and he's had no complaints.  I did inform him that I WAS NOT complaining or looking for anything from him, just wanted to to try and  get some answers to help save our dog.  Here is the link to Shiva's pedigree:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/497274.html

So if anyone has maybe had some experience with this, and can give some advise, it would be greatly appreciated.

Christine

I had a friend tell me about an article she read that claimed some studies had led researchers to believe that lamb based foods may cause enlarged hearts in large breed dogs, but I have never been able to find the article. Could anyone shine some light on that one, too?

Christine, I am so sorry to hear that your boy is sick. I looked at his photos and he truly is a beauty.

As far as I remember, an enlarged heart is a symptom of some type of heart disease. It is not a disease in itself. It may take your vet some time to make a definitive diagnosis since there are so many reasons this could have happened. Good luck.

The primary cause of heart enlargement in canines, just as in humans, is a problem within the heart itself. This can range from arrhythmias which compromise the ejection of blood, to problems with valves, to idiopathic causes (genetics),  to cardiac tissue being compromised by lack of blood flow and so severely damaged that it cannot function as it should. Right pulmonary malfunction for a variety of reasons can also lead to the heart having to work harder. Tumors like hemangiosarcomas can also invade the heart tissue. Essentially, if the heart has to work harder to move blood, the muscle fibers will enlarge over time leading to an enlarged heart. Eventually, this enlargement compromises the ability of the heart to do its work.

The important thing is to get a complete and correct work up and diagnosis. There are many things that can help a dog with this problem and the sooner it is caught, the better. Of course, often the serious signs do not manifest until the dog is middle aged and by then, a lot of damage can already have occurred. Don't waste time looking for silly things like something in the environment etc. That only compromises any chance you may have to find the real problem and treat it. If it is an enlarged heart, there will be no cure possible, but the main cause, if found, can be treated. As I said, this will likely be a heart or lung problem.

Good luck.

KC,

I will looking into that.  All my dogs are on the same food, Purina One...which I've never had a problem with.  And Shiva is the only one sick.  But I'm taking all the others into this afternoon (vets are in Surg., all morning so can't get them in until then) to have bloodwork done.

Blizten,

Thank you.  It's just so frustrating because he appeared to be perfectly fine all day and them BOOM!!  He is the dog that we purchased to replace the dog that was stolen from my daughter by a woman in Columbus...so it's even more devistating for her.  And she is blaming herself.   We had him neutered because he was simply a pet for her, and never had any intentions of breeding or anything.  So we never had any reason to xray his heart or anything like that.  She feels it's something she should of "noticed"! :( 

Vet called not that long ago.  Said Shiva is responding to treatment, a little more alert this AM, but they won't know how much, if any, damage there is until they can get him up and moving around.  We are due to go see him this afternoon.

Will update then.

Christine

Hodie,

I think we might have been posting at the same time.  I can't get my scanner to work, so i will just type in what we have thus far on his bloodwork. 

Apparently, they are most confused by the Sodium and Potasium levels BOTH being so low.  They say, if anything, one should be high with the other low.  From what I've been reading on the subject, we really need to get an ultrasound of the heart done.  According to my vet, he has not detected any type of mumor.  We have an appt with a Internal Med. specialist, is that a good place to start?  I kinda agree that we shouldn't be wasting our time on trying to find something environmental, simply because I have 3 other dogs, in the same area as him, who all appear to be doing just fine.  (then again, so was he up until a few hours before this happened.)  But I am glad they have ruled that out.  I just was hoping that someone who might have had something similar happen could possible give me a direction to start looking so we didn't waste anymore time. 

Christine

There is nothing more gut wreching than having your kids or your dogs sick. I wish you and your Daughter the best, with hopes of finding out what is wrong/can be done.

Just based on what you post here the information is, at best, incomplete and makes a guess as to what is going on very difficult.  Did they take the dogs' temperature? The dog probably is dehydrated and that can account for some of the abnormalities in counts.  There are clear abnormalities here and whether they are a result of the test process or are real values is a question I would have. Tests are only as good as the equipment and the techniques for blood drawing and processing are.

For example, does the dog really have an enlarged heart or could there be a tumor there as well? Or does he have pulmonary edema, for example? Did they do a Coombs test on a blood smear? Are the potassium and sodium levels correct? What is his capillary refill like and what is the color of his mucous membranes? There is no assessment here of his kidney or liver function. Nor is there a complete blood count. How can they even begin to guess without more information? 

Taking this dog to a specialist is a good idea since your vets seem stumped. Certainly more information is needed to make a guess at a diagnosis. This is best done by getting the dog to a specialist as soon as possible. There are a multitude of questions that require more information before answers can be suggested. The process begins by getting appropriate tests results. The seizures suffered by the dog may be simply because of metabolic issues and that in and of itself suggests kidney problems......

Good luck.

You've received some good advice in the above posts. I do agree with Hodie re the information being at best incomplete. To start with insure that they have gotten his electrolytes back in order and addressed the high glucose level - either of those can be a killer by themselves. Obviously we can not see the dog and do not know his other test results AND a situation like this can be extremely complex . Some ideas to explore immediately include a systemic or blood infection given the high WBC ( and infection can cause heart failure), dietary reasons for the inbalance in NA and K ( this can wait while the problem is being addressed)  and the two elephants sitting in the living room - hemangiosarcoma and heart disease.

This links outlines some of the heart disease that GSDs are suspectible to. http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/germanshepherd/germansheparticle2.htm 

I had been looking up Dilated Cardiomyopathy  since I remembered a research article about the problem in Dobies and GSD and it is often a disease of younger midage dogs . Haven't found the article yet but have included some other links that you might find worth reading. Please note they really do NOT know the cause of DC tho they suspect a genetic link because it runs in certain breeds - HOWEVER it has also been linked to deficiencies of certain amino acids - taurine and carnitine . Coq10 has also been shown to help it. Again if memory serves right there was a bit of a hoopla a number of years ago because cat food did not offer sufficient taurine and so cats who are very sensitive to the lack thereof where dying from DC. Even if your other dogs are OK you might want to switch to another brand of food for awhile since lately we seem to have such problems in dog food in having things it shouldn't and not having things it should.(NOTE NOT saying it's the food's problem - just suggesting precaution.) IF the disease included a genetic predisposition then it is possible for two animals on the same diet to have different outcomes.

This link includes information re the the amino acid role AND by the way I believe that both carnitine and coq10 fall into the category of might help won't hurt re treatment with them. http://www.ygrr.org/doginfo/health-heartcondition.html  This is a vet site with a good discussion of the varies heart pathologies in different breeds. http://www.vetgo.com/cardio/concepts/concsect.php?conceptkey=78#78   A bit techinical but good article http://www.vetpathology.org/cgi/content/full/42/1/1  and finally Guidelines for the study of familial dilated cardiomyopathies   eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/20/2/93.pdf  .   My thoughts are with you and Shiva- hoping for the best outcome.

If he is found to have DC, you may want to read up on the use of carnitine in treatment because I'm not sure that message has gotten to the veterinary population yet.

Here is a good starting place. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8576569   One of the reasons I know about it is Dr. Winters practices at a local children's hospital and back in the early 1990's was spotlighted by our local paper because she was saving children who had cardiomyopathy with this treatment (even tho at the time it was very difficult to get in this country) that everyone else had written off for dead.

For other board members just a FYI. Dr. Winter's also mentioned that carnitine had been used for years in Europe for the treatment of diabetes and she felt that every diabetic should be on it.  I ended up doing a fair amount of research about that because my sister was diabetic. This amino acid helps the liver process proteins and fats and is a major supporter of the cardio-vascular system. It is now available as an over the counter supplement but if used please be aware in diabetics it will affect blood glucose levels AND the amount of medication or insulin that is needed so it should be done with the treating physician's knowledge.

Once again god speed and our thoughts are with you.