PEDIGREE's of WELL know GSD's that carry the blue and liver gene - Page 3

No, I am speaking of only altering the ones that have DQ faults, not the ones who occasionally throw a puppy with a DQ fault.  If the fault were something that would cause physical problems for the dog, then by all means, yes, alter all those dogs who can potentially pass that gene on. 

If you take issue with  the fact that the fault is DQ, then work to change the standard or start a different breed like so many have done rather than purposely breeding  dogs that don't meet the standard.  I think that's what the Panda lady has done, in Germany the  whites are now their own breed and the long coats too.  That's the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

Well it seems the "political correctness"  moderators have been at it yet again and the thread "Breeding Gone Wrong" has been removed so that readers now can not judge for themselves the issues that were raised w/ Oleso - not with rancor and ill words just with the facts.

So you know what  Auralythic is referring to - another poster had copied to the thread an ad on this db by oleos dated 3/19 that says " In search of a breeding female of breeding age or older, but not to exceed 4 years old. Looking for a dark sable, solid black, blue or BI only please. Titled NOT important but MUST be from working lines...NO AMERICAN SHOW LINES!!!!!!
Must be good with all people yet protective is OK. Not worried about cats etc. MUST NOT be timmed or fearful and must have the basics in obedience, like comes when she is called and is not afraid to be caught. Been there done that already....nothing worse then a 2 year old dog that has no manners because some one could not bother to spend a few days a week to train them to at the VERY least come when called and actually come so you can catch them. But never a bad dog, ALWAYS a bad owner. So please don't try and pawn off the dog you don't want because it does not seem to have any manners due to your own ignorance....learned my lesson there.
NOT looking to spend over $500."

This from someone who charges $900 -$1200 a puppy according to his other ads.

This person knows very little about the history of the breed ( has the dates all wrong about standard changes re colors) and very little about genetics based on the comments in the deleted thread.

Finally once again to quote you "I have over 1000 GSD's out there with either MY name or KENNEL name on it." -  yet only ONE of those appears in the OFA database.

Board members please note in this reply and all others I have not name called or made derogatory statements to or about this person. I simply confronted oleos with his/her own statements and apparantly oleos does not care for the light of day.

Enuf said.

Since this is sort of on topic, let me ask the membership this:

If you had a working line dog that took schutzhund seriously, kicked butt no matter the field or helper, day or night, on ice or in any scary situation, was great with kids and in public yet protected when necessary (for real), had amazing tracking ability and the best biddability and obedience, had the TRUE ideal conformation for a GSD (not marred by any showring trend), healthy as the dictionary definition of good health, and in short was the perfect GSD *except* that it was liver or blue, would you breed it?  Why or why not?  For the sake of agument, let's say this dog has the ability to produce itself so it is a strong bitch/sire.

Aura.....you are 100% right....and at one time, when I got my second blue and I was a little more knowledgeable I did try to have him titled, but the ScHh clubs did not want him there. He did get trained and did very well but never titled. He lived to the age of 12 with no health issues. I still have his son, coming 8 and no health issues, but he is a solid black.

Funny thing with my breeding program, is I have yet to bred a blue to a blue. Have got blues in some litters and do not exploit them as "rare" or ask more money. They are from the same parents, have the same environment as the others and do not treat them any different. They are sold at the same price and although can not be shown in the "show ring" most certainly can be shown in obedience, agility ect. And that is where it needs to start. More blues need to go into competitions that they cannot band them from and work their way up again and maybe the next generation will see them for the same ability as the standard, as well as their beauty.

Oleos, have you tried a DVG club?  It's a shame the club did not want the dog there but I hear that not all clubs are created equal (I am thrilled that the one by me is AWESOME).  Personally, I love clubs that allow DEDICATED members with dogs of various breeds.  Wonder what would happen when a dilute makes it to regionals and up!

Still, with no way to properly test and work the dogs to find out what they really are like (let's not start a "schutzhund as a breed test" debate here), I would question breeding them at all.  One can never be too sure and one can always fall prey to kennel blindness, no matter how experienced.

SUEINCC.....it would not matter as every puppy in that litter will carry the gene......is it the gene in question or the actual color?

Again Aura....100% correct....if you have a standard GSD that is as you mentioned above, BUT carries the blue gene and you know it....would you just let that ability die, or would you get it out there knowing it will create amazing dogs with amazing ability...BUT may also throw a dog of color, and will most defiantly at least throw the gene.

SUE....you can't get the gene out of the lines. If you bred a blue gene carrier to a non blue gene carrier...STILL all the puppies will be blue gene carriers...even if not blue. It will always continue....and that is what the link was about listing the carriers of "famous" dogs only to show that it is in even the most greatest of lines.

Why stop there?  Why have a standard at all?  Does the standard only count so long as you agree with it? 

Again, if you don't like the standard, do something about it and change it or invent your own breed.  Coming on a message board primarily made up of people who are trying to breed dogs that meet or exceed the standard is only going to get you an argument.

I guess that is the point you, and some others are not getting.  The breed of German Shepherds already exists, how can one invent another breed based on color? If it was purple it would still be a German Shepherd....you can't take that away. So that is silly.

This is not about me "not liking the standard".  The standard gives mostly a discretion of a GSD with temperament and structure, etc....and very little on color. Temperament, structure and ability should not ever be questioned when it comes to what a German Shepherd should 'BE" not look LIKE as far as their fur. No different then a human.....so many would call foul and discrimination if it where of the human dispute.

And that is a contradiction if most here are breeding to met or exceed the standard....if all truly wanted nothing but 100% standard. they would 100% eliminate the blue gene, or any other color....but again the point on this is not about change, as I know it will come, it is about getting breeders to get real and see their lines have this so called flaw and yet they keep breeding it and also keep complaining about it. My point, as yours seems to be as well, stop complaining and face the truth about it or change it to your liking. You can have a standard in place where color is a factor, but be real and see that your lines will always have it.

Beautiful blue dog is he not? Working ability, temperment, structure and loyality to die for. Why would I NOT want to pass that on??

Because there are lots of dogs with the exact same qualifications plus they meet the standard. 

Re my point about oleos aka Bountyfull Kennels reg not understanding genetics - quote " it would not matter as every puppy in that litter will carry the gene......is it the gene in question or the actual color"  -    actually WRONG.

Do you know what a Punnett Square Matrix is? Unfortunately I can not reproduce one for you in this thread but it is a way of determining the percentage of progeny that will inherit  a trait.  Because blue is a recessive the ONLY  way that EVERY puppy would inherit the gene is if you bred a blue to a blue or a blue to a carrier. You  will get different results breeding a blue to a carrier , a blue to a non carrier, two carriers together and a carrier to a non-carrier.  In several of these scenarios you will get some progeny free of the gene !

Sad to say given all your ponitficating you do not understand that simplistic fact of genetics.

You can find an example of a Punnett Square here http://www.ehretgsd.com/GSDcolorGenes.pdf