New found respect for Sch decoys - Page 1

Started training with a Sch group (not doing the sport but found someone willing to help me with my goals)

I have done sleeve work before, but in a totally different way than Sch. It is ALOT different than suit work. I worked a few dogs (one a very strong Mal) and let me tell you the next day my bicep, shoulder, and trap was killing me. That Mal was trying to man-handle me but of course I wasn't having that. He made me work though. Sch decoys sleeve arms have got to be bigger than their stick arms.  

I have not worked dogs consistantly for awhile so timing is off a bit. I am sure as I learn proper technique in the work, it probably won't be as hard on the body (I aint gettin any younger though).

One thing I found was, the drive is easier with a sleeve than a suit (for me anyway) PSA does the same type of drive but it is much harder to do with the dog on the inside upper arm. But like I said, I found the sleeve much harder on the body and for me more physically demanding. (Again I am sure will get better with technique.) The run away is worse in a suit, but that Mali almost took me down from not a very long distance, it was just easier to absorb using the elbow and shoulder as a shock absorber.

I have always respected anyone who decoys for any sport or police work. Now I have a better understanding of this type of work. Ring sport to me is still the most fun. This was fun but I didn't really understand how different it really is. 

Any Sch helpers with any tips on what I can do outside of actualy working dog to help with form and technique I am all ears........

No tips, I just want to say Good Luck and I'm glad the Mali didn't punk you!

The most help in learning "decory" work for Schutzhund or any sport or type of training would be to see yourself do the work...So if you get a chance video tape yourself and you can tell a lot that way...Also if you have a sleeve you can stand in front of a mirror and get a better idea of what you're actually doing right or wrong...With a sleeve you have to learn muscle memory because when you think you've got the right position on the sleeve it isn't necessarily right...You have to see yourself and present the sleeve and then look at where you have it...Good Luck...

~Bob~

Q Man said it best!!

I laugh my a** of everytime I watch my training videos.  I learn something I am doing everytime and get a great laugh also..

Hey GARD, SchH decoy work is fun and very different than suit work.  I prefer the sleeve to suit, but I started working dogs in SchH with a sleeve.  I wear both right and left handed sleeves, I usually wear a left sleeve so switching to the right arm the drives and catches seem backward.  A couple of tips:  Your right the escape bite is a little different.  When you catch the dog the sleeve should be close to the body and moving in an almost natural swing of your as you run.  We don't stick the sleeve arm out to the side and perpendicular to the ground any more, but for training it can be done either way.  The biggest thing is once the dog bites to bring the sleeve in to your body and near your "bread basket."  You want to get the sleeve in tight and the dog should come around so the head is aligned with your shoulder or slightly in front of your chest.  Does that make sense?  It is easier for me to demonstrate than to explain.  The reason being is that some dogs, especially large stocky dogs like rotties or Bouviers will bite and drop their butts low to the ground and try to pull the sleeve behind your back.  When this happens you can wind up tripping over your own feet; or if the dog does get behind you it's very hard to run and pull the dog.  This is where shoulder and back pain start to develop. 

When catching on the long bite run straight to the dog, you can either "run in place" in training for the last few feet or even backup to absorb the impact.  I like to position the sleeve slightly away (in front) from my body and it is held high. chest height with most of the sleeve (2/3rds) off my shoulder.  So my wrist is in the middle of my chest, with about 8" - 10" of gap between the sleeve and my chest.  You always have to move in a straight line either forward or backing up, even on long runaways (running from the dog like a long escape bite.)  The reason being is that the dog will try to cut you off if you anticipate the side the dog is coming on.  Let me clarify:  You are doing a long bite with a fast mali or shepherd or any dog, the dog is coming fast and seems to want to hit you on the right side and you have a left handed sleeve on.  The normal reaction may be to move or shift to your right to absorb the dog and spin when you catch it before the dog gets to you.  However, the dog will try to cut you off if you telegraph your intentions.  The dog will seem to change directions at the last second and wind up on your left side or in your mid section, causing a potential jam.  It's not so much the dog changing direction as it is countering your movements.  I believe that some dogs are right or left sided much like we are right or left handed and seem to prefer one side to the other.  You can see this in the blind search, watch dogs run the blinds, they almost always come around the same side every time.  So my point is don't anticipate to soon and be ready for either side.  Again easier to show you than for me to try to explain. 

Hope this makes a little sense.

Jim  

Got to give them fellows credit who work on the sleeve, its hard on them They do half a dozen Dogs they have to be fit fellows, and its not the sort of game for us old uns

Young Eric and Dick at our Club work Hard as does Marcel and he is a fit 62 year old.

Rinus the Belgian team captain always puts on the suit for Fred to do his Protection work, he is as i said a qualified Pakwerker and international Judge, its great that he takes such an interest in our Fred'

he must think there is something there, i do not know i have never asked him

But they do a fansastic job, all of them, whatever country they do it in

Steve

Jim,

Thanks dude. I was told one thing I was doing wrong was I was dropping my shoulder, and bring the dog back towards my right hip. (I use left handed sleeve) I don't know if that was just natural or if I did it because it made the drive easier for me. I think that is what put more strain on the shoulder and tricep.

As for reading left and right, I have a muscle memory/conditioning problem. I can read what side the dog is comming pretty well, but with all my PSA background, I always want to go left. I have had a tendancy in the past to raise my elbow and muscle them to the left, but with smaller faster Mals, as long as my timing was good, I was able to get away with it most of the time. I am worried though right now cuz my timing is a little off (gotta dust of the ring rust) and the dogs are bigger. Holding off on the long sends for awhile.

I always worked the sleeve kind of like doing suit work. I would leave the sleeve down to my side, read which way the dog was comming and adjust at the last minute. Then "dance with the dog" ring style. No real drive( PSA drive but different in a suit) or runaway or anything like that.

So anyway I am learning something new which is always good.

Thanks all.

Very good post Jim.  GARD if you want to get some training in the fundamentals and mechanics of Sch helper work. I would suggest to drive the two hours and visit  Gary Park. He has trained numerous helpers. Fine tuned our buddy Jose B. Gary will teach anybody willing to learn. Gary at 5'6 and 145lbs could move 90lb rotties and GSD with easy and it is all do to his mechanics and foot work.  Another is Heading up to Placer Co Sch club and visit John Riboni another good teacher. Or go to Alameda Sch club and work with Jose. 

Regards

Mario

It's a hell of a workout, I never realized how much.  I always considered myself to be in pretty decent shape (firefighter/paramedic) and this really wore me out.  I also had a blast.  Almost as much fun as fighting a good structure fire, just not the clean up afterwards