when to get involved? - Page 1

i have two gsd males, sye is 8 year old castrated... and wicket is 12 months intact

90% of the time they are great , but recently the play fights are turning nasty.

my real question is when do i step in?  or indeed should i?

thanks in advance.

Tiger.,..both males?  If so   ......Yes , step in and stop it...tell the older  male it is not acceptable and dont put the 12month old in that situation at all...you will be teaching the 12 mos old he can attack dogs on the street ,,at clubs at anywhere....he should learn that dog agression is not acceptable......no dog    " Phooey "  "no bite"           are the words you use ,   "Phooey "is used for minor infractions of the dogs world .     "Nine" is used when yuo have an  immediate better do it now ,  command and to correct inaccurate command reactions...............".Phooey" becomes a word to tell the dog   ooops    not to be done...or ooops    better not do that   or  oooops   Mamma means business...or pappa means it and its a no no .......back out or off.....

It is not true that neutering a male changes the fight or the dominance and a fight will be disasterous if he chooses to go all the way.....you will have a vet bill   and a bad experience for the    learning   12 month old.....kennel your older dog when other on is out....you are headed for big problems......the way of the dog world...dominance  ....... jealousy   ,,,,,just like people....but dogs with a power of 2000lbs of crushing in jaws can do more damage before you can get one off the other....

thanks yellowrose that is what i have been doing

got told by some interfering prat that DOGS WILL BE DOGS  and to let them get on with it..

thanks again

Tiger: Yes, I know...Had a man call me last week who was referred to me,,and he said several people told him to kennel his new 8 month old male and keep him from anyone , do not let him be social or come in contact with anyone except his kids and his wife  ,,,,if he wanted the male to become his protection dog....

I jumped  100 feet high and up went my blood pressure ,  I spent one hour with him on the phone and then sent him to my new trainer, who owns  Zico vom Merlin,,here on database, and I told him, he was so miss informed.   Funny what John Q Public will tell you.   The latest was a woman last week went to WalMart to get raw liver for her 5 mo.old pup , I sold her and she said the woman ,,told her that checked her out,,,,Oh no, you dont feed raw meat to a german shepherd..My vet told me it will make a german shepherd turn on its master and kill other dogs, chickens ,cows or people....

Oh boy, now we blame  Raw Liver for our dogs behaviour.

See, how the world thinks  or doesnt think?????

red meat i heard gives them distemper!!! lol

I am curious as well.  I have 2 intact males that I use for K9 and show.  One is 8 years old and K9 trained and the younger is 6 years old and protection trained (he doesn't do any bites).  It all started when the younger one turned 4 and the older one (I guess he may have been doing it all along, I just noticed) gives him the old dominant stare, eyes hard, head and tail held high and squared up.  Once a year, they get into it and I can't break them up, just call the vet, and it is usually the older male who puts the younger one down (eventually) that gets most of the wounds.  These fights I don't even interfere with, I can usually tell the once-a-year-knock-downs, and know from 2 of the 4 times that all I do is make things worse.  All the others I have been able to calmly intervene and get them apart.  Yes my dogs are worked almost every day (baring extreme yucky weather or gone for the day, and then they get long walks).  They get to swim in the lake as soon as they jump in and feel like swimming.  I have never gotten bitten until the last time, I spent the night in the ER with serious bites.  I was trapped and tried to get past them (this was the once a year, they had been sleeping next to each other and woke up as I stepped past them, then all hell broke loose and I was trapped).

What to do? They usually get along with the occasional snarf but no real fight, sleep next to each other and get along ok.  But they seem to be eyeing each other most of the time now and it isn't a nice eyeball.  I am sure my getting bitten has something to do with it.  I am not afraid of my dogs or even apprehensive, I know they didn't do it out of meaness or spite, I was just in the way.  As soon as I was bitten (no I didn't scream just yelled a nasty word and told them they were dead dogs!!!!) they ran to their crates.

I am open to any advice.........

Mindhunt, sounds like a great time to separate them permanently.  If not, the next fight could mean the death of one or both dogs and perhaps also your nose or a couple fingers.  That these "knockdown" fights have happened more than once and you leave them be because you admittedly cannot control them to snap them out of it is a clear indicator that it is not a matter of "if" you'll lose a dog or appendage over this, but "when."  Your 8 y/o will probably end up being the loser as he is getting on and though the younger one isn't that much younger, there will come a point where the young male can and might kill the poor guy.

Not all dogs can be safely kept together.  Sometimes things change even after a few years of successful mingling.  I would suggest contacting an experienced trainer if you insist on making this work but YOU need to have the confidence, ability, skills, and strength to separate a fight if it happens but better yet, stop one before it occurs.  A question- when the males eye each other up, do you do anything to stop that?  The key would be to stop the conflict when it starts as a thought or mere eye contact.  You know, some days I really wonder how Cesar Millan can keep all those dogs together, even intact male Daddy, and still keep the peace.  I may not agree with everything he does, but he sure does have some skills!

That goes for some of the bitches too.  Mine are seperated, especially the wild child and the little princess.  Heaven help me if they ever get out together.  The one time was more then enough. 

hey folks, listen dogs are pack animals, have you ever seen a documentery on wolves you learn a lot about pack behavior.in the wolf pack no one ever gets out of line or they have to deal with the leader.your dogs are your pack,so be a good leader and step in and stop the playing when it starts to get little carried away.think to remember is that you have to be on top of it always watch them and as soon as they start to get little serious step in and tell no don't do that but you have to mean it and you see after a while they will start to pay attention to you and this will start to establish you as a leader.i had a shepherd a very strong dog mentally and physically and would not put up with any ones unecesery stupidness and i have a malinois who is a very dominant personality and will always try to dominate the shepherd through play and ofcourse it would start to esclate to something else and always step in and they would go back to normal playing after a while all i had to say is hey and everything back to normal and it was only when they were out in the park or in the backyard playing.they both lived in the house for 10 years and they were both intact, dog people used to be amazed at that cause they new my dogs.hope this helps.

Hi, sorry forgot to also add that do not listen to those people who say let the dogs work it out that is a huge mistake and the one you will regret ,if you let your dogs make youe decisions.dogd are happy when they know there is a good leader who figures every thing out for them . thanx.