...price of a working dog, got me thinking - Page 1

so ive read a good bit of the "price of a working prospect" and it got me thinking about  a few things.  there were folks who said $3k -$5k was reasonable for a started puppy, and a few that said it was way too much.  i dont think anyone pointed out the difference between shoping retail and looking around for a dog wholesale.  basically if a i want a puppy and i want it now i can call a breeder or broker and they will find me one, but if im willing to wait i might be able to find the same quality dog for less.

im not really a big fan of puppies, they take too long to see what they are and i dont like the idea of not knowing a lot about my next competition dog.

I also had a question for the breeders.  How hard is it to get puppies in he hands of trainers who have the experience and resources (time, money, helper etc...) that can succeed at a national level.  and by succeed i just mean score a 265 or better consistantly.  (im not a big fan of scoreing 270 at a club trial then going to nationals and scoreing a 245, been there, done that, and its no fun)

it seems to me that most folks who are capable  of achieving this or more, dont really want to spend 12-18mo w/ a dog just to find out it wont work out.  so how do breeders go about getting puppies in the hands of he best trainers???

Take away their passports, so they can't go to Europe ;-)

Take away their passports, so they can't go to Europe ;-)  Ha ha ha ha ha ha! Good one!

If I though a good, experienced trainer wanted one of my best prospects, I would likely GIVE them the dog, reserve the option of a litter back from a female, a few breeding if a male. THAT'S how hard it is to place our best young dogs with top US handlers...

BTW: I have one or two here. If you're good, call me. I don't have time or resources to title them all myself, hate to see them go to waste.

SS

Yup, GIVE them the dog.  I feel fortunate enough to sell club-level prospects, working homes are NOT the majority.

Even for real work, European lines are the prefered.  For example, SWGDOG guidelines state: The canine shall be European born or of European lineage traceable by two generations.  Proof of lineage shall be provided with each delivery. The absence of proper documentation will be grounds for rejecting a canine. American-bred canines may be accepted on a case-by-case basis as determined by the Government.

Walter, Good thought and correct. We sort out puppies out here and watch them for several months the ones we think that have the most potenial to do sport and sell them later still at puppy price. Still no guarantee they will make  a certain level of sport lots of variables involved incuding who is on the end of the leash,  but better than buying a eight week old shot in the dark puppy . It  is a  additional cost to us extra shots, food, frontline/heartguard and care  but  a benefit to the person wanting a good puppy.

We have two males and one female sorted for sport now older still a gamble but showing eyerything you can evaluate at the young age with food, ball, good nerves and intensity.

If we keep a puppy up till a year say with prelims, some imprinting done by trainers we pay, food heartguard/frontline then of course we are charging more but we still are priced lower than Europe and have less shipping costs as well and encourage the trainer to come test the dog himself  before purchase.

Getting the dogs in the hands of the good trainers now that is the trick and what most breeders dream will happen but rarely does or very infrequent as most top trainers do not fool with puppies and buy dogs either green or already titled at 15 months and up. A lot of  new people to the sport want the best dog or puppy you have and you know they become overwhelmed with the drives of a high drive puppy. I will also say a lot of new people have titled offspring from here their first dog like Lawrence Meyer, Bret Collins, John Thompson and several more coming this spring  first dog in sch will have the Sch1 which is amazing. Wallace Payne is working a dog from my kennel now but it was a Sch3 before he obtained it so again it is tough. I offered Wallace a puppy free his comment was thank you so much but I do not do puppies!

We feel there is no shortage of great working dogs at MANY kennels over in the US but there is a shortage of the trainers to take them were they need to go this is a ongoing problem. The schutzhund sport is expensive with travel fees, club dues, gas prices and most have famlies as well so this is a problem. 

On the post the other day one poster  said "3,000 or higher is bullshit at most clubs you dont have to pay for helper work so cost for training I dont understand" At the very kennel /club posted is 150.00 membership and 10.00 per session paid to the helper each time a dog is worked and 25.00 per session for non members, so again the cost is there anyway you look at it and should be sleeves are expensive and new covers,blinds and equipment is high.

In Europe the trials are not very far apart and they have more clubs, more helpers, more of everything.  The post the other day the person looking for a dog and is going to Europe to get one sight unseen for  I am sure much more money than they could purchase here in the US which is dishearting to the US breeders.  

We have tried everything including sending the puppy to the trainer without payment to see if they worked out so far we did two that way with a fifty percent result ,one   Zidane puppy has his Sch1 and was paid for a month after sending him and the other one a Falco female  we have not heard from since no email answered or phone calls we found out the club  in North Carolina they are in that the dog is awsome, alive and well  but no payment to date.  So it is tough Shelly Strol has a awsome litter on the ground now and is having the same thing happen no shortage of great puppies shortage of buyers and trainers.

Some of our dogs have come back from pet homes as well because of too much dog for a pet sitting which happens and we have placed most of those. The Zidane 17 month old we spoke about who they were tossing bricks to in the yard for him to fetch that ruine

Cont

That ruined his teeth is working at the Tallassee Al Police dept with Officer Beth Moates.

The trainer that trained Zidane only does puppies will not take one over ten weeks so it varies for sure. He has Nena at eight weeks going to the WUSV is in strong position to do so and his new male Flax he got at eight weeks is awsome now at 13 months and he said better than Zidane ever could have been which hurt my feelings LOL 

I wish the sport was promoted more and made easier for people to find one to join this would help the US breeders and the sport in general.

Marlene

 I,ve been reading these last few post,s and thought it was time for my 2 cents.

 I,m no rocket scientist but if you are having a hard time placing puppies in quality homes with quality handlers the law of supply and demand should of kicked some sense into to you by now ...Stop making puppies... but i,m sure to most of you the money is too good to stop or your egos cant stand the idea that some one else might sell a puppy, at some point the breed has to be the biggest concern...wow what a concept...breed less, breed when you know the litter is sold(that would take something we call thinking before the breed). 

I,m not against buying a puppy as i just purchased a pup from a kennel in Texas 1500.00 Joint guarantee to OFA Temperament guarantee to a year and has been more then helpful with any info i,ve needed and yes i bought her with limited regs to be full after ofa and her first performance title (that just makes sense to me) parents both titled and KKL.

And to all the big shot whoop t doers out there that "I don,t do puppies" thats just society,s problem of instant gratification creeping into the dog world if your not willing to work thru the complete cycle of the dog experience my thoughts would be you just don,t have the talent to work puppies so don,t call your self a trainer.           

Some time ago when i looked on G.S sites in the USA the price of Pups was very high, much higher than over here in Belgium and Holland. Now the Finacial problems in the USA has not helped ,but it could be the bubble has burst regards high prices in general over there

On a thread here not so long ago i mentioned that there was frozen semen in the USA from an excellent up and coming Dog from over here in Belgium, His early Young are working well in Germany , Belgium, Holland with a few in the USA

He is SchH3 KKL1 for life, breeders sellers stamp, DNA, Normal  Hips and Elbows

I have a pup from him myself

There was not one comment on the thread regards this Dog, Which is a little suprising, anyone with a top bred  working line Titled Female could do themselves a lot of Good

I know this Dog as i said and he is Top Class in Breeding and performance

Steve

One of the best signs of a good trainer is the ability to train a dog from a puppy. I want the satisfaction of saying I trained it from a pup. 

 However, since I am on my third pupy( temperment and/or health) since trying to get back in the game and wasting two years of training, I am starting to think about going for a green dog. Pups are always a gamble.

exactly, pups are a gamble.  for those that do schutzhund because they like to spend time w/ other folks and love thier dogs, puppies are  a good choice.  but for those that want to compete at a higher level.  a green dog is the bette bet. lets say you spend $1500 on a pup and after 18 mo. i doesnt work out.  you sell the pup for $1500 then buy a 6mo old pup for $4k and it doesnt work out.  and you sell that pup for $4k.  you are not out any money for the pup but your time and gas money is gone.  you've not lost 2yrs of your life and you'll never get it back.  not to mention you still dont have a dog to compete w/