PPD vs Sport vs Family PD vs Police vs Security ? - Page 1

Hello,

My first post here. I have been surfing the pedigree database to find a young male (under 1 year) for our family (no children but hoping to have one in not too distant future). I have a background in obedience and agility and would like to get a dog to compete in scutzhund/PSA. He will hopefully be a good guardian with a degree of civil aggression if his owners are threatened. He will live in the house with our other dog - a samoyed.

Could someone please explain to me what sellers mean when they say, suitable for:

Personal Protection Dog

Sport

Police

Family protection

Security

I think i have an idea but don't want to be presumptious......it is getting slightly confusing though.

Thanks a bunch!

Actually reading this post I feel it may be a good feature if users can Bookmark favourite articles on this board. This topic alongwith many others have been discussed and not only this many articles are repeats. We all do this so it would help if bookmarks can be given to previous dicsussions

cheers

laura,

often PP folks dont truly understand the type of dog it takes to excel (not just earn a a title at you home field) in schutzhund.  just like some schutzhund folks dont understand the type of dog that makes a good police dog.

at the end of the day, a good dog is a good dog.  a good dog will excell at what ever you train it in. some dogs may not posses a lot of civil aggression so they are marketed as sport dogs, but that very same dog may not be able to walk off lead at a park.

you can take a good dog and train it to do what ever, shutzhund, PSA, PP etc...

The answer becomes Sport vs Real & training is vastly different.

A well trained PP & certainly Police K9 dog,  is trained differently than a titled sport dog.  Has No equiptment fixations ie Sleeve or prey object, & will bite Hard, &  for real-& is tested & trained so.   Is often worked & trained in a Muzzle,  on multiple attackers,  cars, in many scenarios (not same field)  & often more defensive in posture, least a good PP dog. 

Its just a totally different set of training regimens.

Sport dog is a sport dog.  Some can cross over to PP or K9, but many cannot.  Ive heard from a friend & military & K9 handler that 1 in 25 SCHh titled dogs,  might make the grade & test to become a working K9.  

A family protection dog..varies.  Levels 1,2,3    1=Alert & bark/growl on command at threat.   2,3 Etc in incremental levels of training but its often buyer beware.

Real Security dogs for commercial purposes & left alone to guard.. often have little socialization, everyone is a potential threat..and are often very dangerous dogs.  Not pets, Not Sport dogs.  Very defensive  & territorial in nature.

Others can chime in, but thats what Ive learned in the last few years as a brief intro to the variant training style & dogs in each venue.    -Think a Black belt in a Dojo as a Sport with Rules,  VS A street fighter.   Thats the difference. No rules, Gis, refs or mats.      If you train for streetfighting or survival,  you enact many scenarios..a knife, gun, multiple attackers, & degrees of lethality You can use,  to disarm or stay alive,  while inflicting brutal punishment on your attacker to survive. 

I Could not say it any better uglydog  DITTO!!!!!

uglydog,

a few questions for you.  so given a nice puppy do you think that pup could be trained for PP, Police SCh etc... and excel at any?

often when i see discussions about psa,pp,vs schutzhund the psa and pp folks seem to point to the sh*ty club level sch dogs and not to the stronger higher level dogs.  and assume that all police, pp, psa dogs are the real deal. 

so why does it seem psa,pp,and police folks seem less likely to see a dog at a schutzhund trial and say, WOW thats a nice dog, i dont like the training but the dog is nice?

a few more points.

do you agree that a good dog is a good dog?

you mentioned that 1 in 25 sch dogs would make a working k-9. does that mean he based that on his testing of titled dogs they would make the cut as a k-9 due too the training, or the dog being not strong enough? if so how did he seperate the training from the dog?

or he's tested young dogs that wouldnt make as k-9's then went on to get titled?

ill be the 1st to admit that schutzund titles are too easy to get these days, but most pp and k9 people i meet cant seperate the dog from the training.  for example on several occasions ive seen k9 and pp folks test a dog and they insist that if they through the sleeve and the dog chases it the dog is not good.  but i think its a cheap parlor trick. because that is how the dog was trained. it could have just as easily been trianed in a more civil manor from a young age.

i do agree w/ the training aspect of real vs routine. i do see your point of karate vs street fighting, but the question i need to pose is.  if the person who was taught karate, learned street fighting instead would he be just as good. it would be hard to say the karate person is weaker and could never be a street fighter based on the simple fact they are involved in karate and not street fighting.

just my 2 cents

Wscott00-

I think uglydog summed it up well when he stated it was in the training regiment ( PPD/Police dogs are trained differently)

PPD/Police most of the time require more defensiveness to complete training throughly, SCH dogs very rarely actually work in defense. A well trained SCH dog does not need defense if trained properly prey will get him through all levels.. Routine is another factor the dog goes through it so much he knows he will never need to go into defense.

I know some Police K9 trainer sbuy SCH 1 (nothing higher) dogs to speed the training up as the dog already has foundation work but not instill or locked in prey. They are eaiser to evaluate because they will show defense at that level if they have it in them.

wscott..others here are more qualified to give opinions, Ill  do my best.

The CUT to make it To a Working K9,  is what separates dogs.  Its Genetics, Not training,  at that point.  It isnt pretty. My friend was told, "you may not want to watch" ...when watching a dog being tested as a future K9, his 1st time.  That dog, Was to be trusted with his partners life, there can be no weak dogs.  Its life or death.  When Stressed, a dog reverts to genetics.

SCHh is a Sport. A fine sport.  But Used to not be.  It Used to be a Breed Cert. Thats changed, so too have the breeders goals, in large part.  Its not the training.    I Repeat. Its not.   For Breeding purposes, SCHh is great.. Ive no problem with it. None, I like it. It is what it is.

You cant take a black belt & make every one a bad ass.  Its thats simple.   And someone that has gone through MMA UFC type training, while technical, may get beaten  up badly  by a tough street fighter.  Thats genetics, toughness. Not trainable. Just has it.

Some Sport dogs can Crossover to PP or K9, but many cant.  Thems just the facts. If someone tells you differently, theyre Lying.

"so why does it seem psa,pp,and police folks seem less likely to see a dog at a schutzhund trial and say, WOW thats a nice dog, i dont like the training but the dog is nice?"

Wscott, I have and I do say that. I don't care what venue a dog is training in, if it's a nice dog, it's a nice dog. I have been to more Sch trials than I have PSA and I train in PSA.