opinions please, why dont we see.......... - Page 1

why dont we see more show dogs compete at the national events, than we see working dogs at the seiger shows? 

from what i have seen most of the "Universal Seigers" have been what most people would call working dogs. 

statistics on this would be wonderful.

just wondering. 

john

Ah John, this is a subject that I too have great interest in.  The show dog world is very different from the working dog world. People, dogs, and goals are very different. The goal of MOST show dog owners is to get the dog trained to present well in the ring, conditioned for the ring, to campaign the dog for every show, and title as quickly as possible. By doing this, the dog can produce more offspring and the kennel name is more prominant at shows. The majority of training time goes into the ring work, and NOT into laying foundation work for a working title. There are show folks who DO take the time, and have great dogs. However, you will find that these folks have only a few dogs in their kennels, and aren't spending time and money at shows, as they spend that time and money going to club and working dog trials.  Working dog folks are amazing! The biggest difference I see, other than they look at a dog's drives as opposed to whether the pup can stack at a young age, is the way they support each other.  Working people spend their time, energy and most of their days planning, training, and figuring out ways to communicate to their dog what it is they want the dog to do. Most of the working folks, never even consider doing any ring training for the dog when it comes time for the breed survey. A "G" or "SG" works for them, because the dog isn't going to make its mark based on how nicely it trots in the ring, the dog will make its mark based on its ability to perform on the working trial field.

Sadly, the other part of this has to do with, for lack of a better word, stigma, attached to the show line dog and the world they live in. Although I do not have statistics, and the following is based on my own observations over the years, and owning both show and working lines. One only needs to go to a few clubs to see the difference. If you go to a working dog club, if there are show lines training, you will see some subtle differences. The show dogs might not be worked as hard, are probably behind the other dogs in how far and how fast they are trained. My experience has shown that you have to take more time to lay foundation, CORRECT foundation with a show line than a working line dog. Some of the dogs need to spend more time learning to take stick hits without coming off the sleeve. The dog might be insecure, looks more to the handler for back up, gets dirty, doesn't have a strong bark, so these things all take much more time to work on than with a working line dog. In the show dog clubs, these things aren't as much of an issue to the handler. The dogs generally do not trial off their own field, and they are just getting the titles so they can move onto V or VA rating and breed. The other part of this, is that folks who are heavy into show lines and the whole show package, some, send the dogs away for training. That training is usually quick, and just enough to get the titles.

If the training is quick, and the titles quickly gained, that dog probably couldn't handle the pressure of a national level helper. There are some dogs that can, and do, but they are few and far between. There are a few show line dogs that are competing at the national and world level, in working trials, but because they work so well, observers do not think they are show lines.

Have you ever been to a seminar for schutzhund? the dogs that are there, are they working or show? most seminar attenders are working line. Does that give you an idea of some of the differences?

I am seeing a small movement in people looking more towards the smaller breeders who have taken the time to properly bring out, train and breed for more working ability in the show line dog. Hopefully, they won't lose heart and determination.

Dee,

EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT REPLY!!!!

Christine

I think that National level competitors are not willing to risk their time with a dog that is from Show Lines.  Working lines are a crap shoot in itself.  I'm not saying that a showline dog out there couldn't compete with a field of working dogs, but why stack the odds against yourself? 

Ivan's dog will be a national level dog this year.   This is proof that it can be done, but is it done often?  No.   Once in a while someone may come across an older showline that has what it takes.  I think to invest your time on a showline puppy is a bigger crap shoot than throwing the dice with a working line puppy. 

Dee,

I love reading your opinions when it comes to question like this.   I wish more would pay attention instead of just saying working line proponents are picking on show lines. 

Thank you for the excellent post.

And Don, You are so right. Apache will be national level no doubt.

I agree, about Apache. I am sure this dog will present well. I have looked everywhere for the pedigree on this dog, and have yet to find it. I am very interested in what is behind this dog that Ivan found so compelling. Anyone know the pedigree?

I have to say, I am rather surprised at the lack of response to this thread. Usually the show/working threads draw a lot of attention. Does this mean we have finally beaten this type of thread to death?

Animules, thank you for your comment. I often wonder if my opinions have allowed me to cut off my nose to spite my face? I am very passionate about show line dogs. I love them, but if they don't truly work, I have no use for them. I know that doesn't garner me a lot of positive attention with the show line world.  I am overly critical in regard to the working ability of a show line dog. I just wish other breeders were as well.

DeesWolf,  wow, what an awesome post. thank you. 

based on your comments, I would think that the Universal Sieger title was made more for the promotion of the working dog structure than the promotion of the show dogs working ability.  (just  my opinion)

i think that the lack of interest is good.  at least we wont get into a name calling match.

john

I think Dees and Dons post have some good reasons as to why.  I know when I'm looking for a pup/dog that I want to actually work like a true GSD should, I try and stack the deck as much as possible in favor my intentions with the pup.  HAVE to worry about drives, nerves, health, and hips not sieger shows results and I guess the same would go for those who want a dog mainly to compete in the sieger show(look for show ratings).  With that being said aren't all dogs in the sieger show black and tan.  Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't a whole lot of black and tan working line dogs are there?  Most come in the dominant color sable.

John,

Honestly, I wonder too sometimes about the universal sieger. In my opinion, it should be a dog with incredible working ability that also has correct structure.  A lot of it also has to do with campaigning a dog. The show world is all about campaigning the dog. The working world is all about proving the dog's ability and temperament. Working lines trial frequently working towards that qualifying score for the nationals. Show line dogs do not do that. Their campaign is for trophies in the ring and recognition of their structure.

If only.....more time was spent proving the dogs could work, and not just on a home field, we might see more show lines at national events. I would also like to see more support of handlers' dreams for this too. I think so many handlers of show lines get shot down wanting to do this that they give up and accept the general concensus, that show line dogs cannot compete at that level and do well.  Some get so complacent, why bother? they say a show line won't do well. I'd like to see more show lines at Schutzhund Regionals! I want to see more show line handler/owner/trainers bucking the norm and proving it can be done. Sadly, I don't think this will happen until more breeders begin breeding more for ability and correct temperament and less to the flavor of the month dogs.

as they say on the Blue Canoe commercials, "That's my what if..."