Showdog Schutzhund - Page 1

I think it is likely that there is far more working ability in some of the showline dogs, the German bred ones anyway, than is recognised simply because they are not given the opportunity to show what they can do.  It is common practise in Germany and becoming popular here in UK, to send a showdog to a trainer for a crash course in Schutzhund to get a title and that dog never gets worked again.  Fast track training, usually forced, is not going to get the best out of a dog.  Alas, it is not possible to tell from the dogs pedigree which dogs got titles they did not deserve and which ones were good ones, even their scores are not a true guide as a good dog badly trained will not show its best.

Margaret N-J

Margaret,

I believe you have a very valid point. There are many conformation line dogs that work well when put through a training program similar to what many working line owners follow. I see lack of training being the biggest obstacle to the conformation lines.

Very valid point and im not just agreeing cause i own 2 showlines.You do see that ALL THE TIME.Just give me that title so i can make money.True unfortunatly.And it also does'nt help any when you have certain morans in some clubs that shoot the dog down before it even has a chance JUST CAUSE ITS A SHOWLINE.And YES myself and some other friends have all experianced this MANY A TIME.Look at my buddies dog Uwe, he made it to the worlds this year and guess what,he's a showline.OK i know some of you are going to say that he was disqualified but Frank will be the first to admit that alot of it was handler mistakes NOT THE DOG.Its pretty sad when most wont even aknowledge the dog just for its lineage.And why is it that alot of  people in sch are like that towards showlines?Look,I will be the first to admit that there are some POORLY BRED showdogs but there are JUST AS MANY working lines that dont cut it,plain and simple.I personally look at the individual dog and then judge it,NOT condem the whole breed cause of some UNETHICAL breeders that could'nt give 2 shits as long as they sell dogs.I hope that when i get my working line dog that it has the same BALANCED drives as my one showline boy.You guys would'nt beleive this little guy of mine,even the big name guys that have worked him are all impressed.There is a few of us that are wanting to find a field so that we could have are own little training group WITHOUT the politics and BS.We dont care what the dog is as long as it can do the work. Should a club not be there to support its members?I always thought that when you join a club and are a supportive member and do what you have to do that this same club SHOULD and COULD support you ,Is it not like that anywhere?I WONT beleive that there is'nt a club out there that does things as it should.without all the BS.Anyway good day to you all and thanks for this topic Kaffirdog

Margaret, I agree with that statement 110%. I think with show dogs its rushrushrush to get that title so they can be shown in the working class then bred, and often times poor bitework is the result of poor training.

The facility I work for trains K9, they use show and working lines indescriminately, they choose the individual dog for its suitability.  Refer to V Baran Bad-Boll, his litter brother is a K9 locally, and a damn good one. I know and Ando Altenberger land son, a Bravo Haus Yu son, Erasmus van Noort son, Campino Piste Trophe son and a gorgeous Kaly linebred dog, all acceptted into the program. And these are only the ones I can name off the top of my head, there are many more.

I would love to see more owners of showline dogs become more involved in sport.

Yes, but that is the CHOICE that the owners make, and it perpetuates the stereotype of the lazy low-drive show dog bred for money. 

It's a pity that so many dogs live and die without their full potential being tapped.  However, if the handlers don't put in that effort, then who will believe them when they say, "Yes but he's just as capable as those ugly working dogs?"

I don't have a problem with someone sending a dog to get titled, but once you get the dog back, do something with what ya got!  Or else, don't cry and moan when you do drag out your dog to a trial and it flops. 

Yvette

I fully agree with Yvette and Margaret:  the owners make a choice to have their show dogs titled in '"Midnight Trials" and returned with Sch 3 titles, despite clearly never having seen a dumbbell or a track in their lives.   Then, the owner trots them out for shows, talks about how 'awesome" the bitework is because the dog doesn't get run off the field at the US or Canadian Sieger Show, and breeds the hell out of it.   When I ask why some of these sch 3 males are not trialed, I am told, almost uniformly, that he is "too valuable to risk him being hurt on a trial field."  Uh-huh...

There have been years when all , or nearly all the bitches at the Canadian Sieger Show failed the protection...and they were Sch 3 bitches.  Why?  Because they were not actually trained and worked.   The ones that do show true working ability never seem to be bred to males of similar caliber.  I know of one show line bitch who works like a sable in a black & red suit.   Yet, instead of being bred to either a good working line male, or a show line male of equal working ability, she gets bred to a VA import with less gumption than a Golden Retreiver.  Why?  M-O-N-E-Y:  puppies of a VA stud are "worth" more in marketing to pet homes.  As a result, that bitch, and her abilities, are not capitalized upon in a  breeding program, because pigment and length of upper arm and croup means more than temperament and working ability.

I fully agree with Yvette and Margaret:  the owners make a choice to have their show dogs titled in '"Midnight Trials" and returned with Sch 3 titles, despite clearly never having seen a dumbbell or a track in their lives.   Then, the owner trots them out for shows, talks about how 'awesome" the bitework is because the dog doesn't get run off the field at the US or Canadian Sieger Show, and breeds the hell out of it.   When I ask why some of these sch 3 males are not trialed, I am told, almost uniformly, that he is "too valuable to risk him being hurt on a trial field."  Uh-huh...

There have been years when all , or nearly all the bitches at the Canadian Sieger Show failed the protection...and they were Sch 3 bitches.  Why?  Because they were not actually trained and worked.   The ones that do show true working ability never seem to be bred to males of similar caliber.  I know of one show line bitch who works like a sable in a black & red suit.   Yet, instead of being bred to either a good working line male, or a show line male of equal working ability, she gets bred to a VA import with less gumption than a Golden Retreiver.  Why?  M-O-N-E-Y:  puppies of a VA stud are "worth" more in marketing to pet homes.  As a result, that bitch, and her abilities, are not capitalized upon in a  breeding program, because pigment and length of upper arm and croup means more than temperament and working ability.

This is a subject that annoys the hell out of me, and I am an owner of show line dogs. I do agree that there are dogs out there that will never reach their full potential on the trial field because they are rushed and never have proper foundation on any phase built. I see "breeders" and I use that term loosely, buying titled dogs (again titled dogs is another term I use loosely) they breed those "titled" dogs, never having actually trained a dog in schutzhund or titled a dog in schutzhund. I hear from people all the time that they don't have the time, money or club nearby to effectively build foundation themselves in training, in a dog they have. But, it is amazing how much time, money, energy and such they have to campaign a dog in every show they can find. Yet, in my area, there are several clubs, great helpers, very supportive clubs with very knowledgeable members, and yet, I can count on one hand the number of show line breeders in the area that I actually see doing things other than shows. I have a  young 14 month old male who has never been in a ring, yet he can track, recently started bite work, and I have no intention of putting him in a ring until he is ready for a breed survey. My current female never saw or entered a show ring until she was 2.5 years old. She has never had any show ring training. She got on the job training the day of a show. However, I started her in schutzhund training at 17 months, had her BH on her at 2.5 years, her AD shortly after, her sch1 before she turned 3, her breed survey right after she turned 3. She has had one litter of pups, all but 1 pup (which I have) were sold to working homes.

How was I able to do this? I have a fantastic supportive club full of members who all have working line dogs. My dogs are the lone show lines. The helpers and the members drilled into me how important it was to lay proper foundation on my dogs. Face it, being show line dogs there comes that time when the pressure will be more than they would normally be able to handle and they NEED that foundation to fall back on. There was not any reason for me to rush any of my dogs through training, titling and on to mass puppy production. There was a moment in time, in the beginning when I asked, "what do you think about sending her to Germany for training and titling?" Thankfully, there was honesty laid at my feet. She is a great dog, good potential, why pay to send her away, and take the chance that what is so special about her would be lost in the force. I am ever so grateful to my mentors who did not tell me what to do, but gave me the information necessary for me to make the decision to keep her at home, train and title her myself.

I am pretty sure there are other dogs out there like her but they have owners who aren't as fortunate to have a supportive club that wants to see a handler and dog reach their potential, no matter the lines. I think a lot of the newer owners do not even comprehend the amount of time, energy, money, devotion, and addiction one needs to have in order to reach that potential. Of course there are some out there who do have all of this, and yet they purchased a pup out of VA parents that couldn't do the work, but hey they look fantastic running around a ring with their tongue hanging out.

There are days I am very bitter in regard to dogs I see being spouted as the best, when clearly, those dogs have never actually been on a working dog trial field competing. Those dogs are only trialed on their own club field, with the same helper who has worked them all the time. I give huge credit to the show line person who competes on any field outside their normal venue.  I have very lofty goals for my dogs. I am thankful that the people around me support those goals. Instead of telling me a show line dog will never be able to do something, they tell me, how to make it happen, what steps are needed, and they help me instead of shooting me

<wow, gotta love where the thread split!>LOL

down. Maybe if more clubs and other "sport" enthusiasts did this, we might just see some of those other dogs that really can work, compete and pass on better genetic material out there on the fields. If I can stand on the side lines of a show ring and cheer loudly for the sable working line and be pissed when that dog doesn't get the higher rating it deserves, why can't others stand on the side of a training or trial field and support the show line person who tries? People seem to complain (and yes I am one of them) that show line dogs don't have it whether it is training or genetics, but if we want to see the changes, start supporting the people that are trying to make the changes. If a club member wants a black and red, help them find the breeder who actually has those dogs that can work.

Now, I shall step down off the soap box.

DeesWolf,WELL SAID.I dont know if you know how lucky you are to have that kind of support system.There are alot of us who wish we had that.A while back i had some guy bob(which i can find his user name once i check )from this site tell me how lucky i was to have many clubs around me and that i should'nt talk bad .Well first off this guy does'nt know anything what so ever about me and did'nt even know  what city im from,only the province (which is BIG)and decided to make that judgement call against me.And yes i pm him and he did'nt respond back which did'nt surprize me.What he also does'nt know is EVERYTHING you just said and also that those same people he thinks so highly of are stabbing him in the back before he can even turn his back.Anyway,its to bad that it has to be this way.On a more  positive note,KEEP KEEPING ON DeesWolf.You have the right attitude to get ahead.