What could have made our GSD's independent minded...??? - Page 1

I was chatting with one of my Mallinois-buff  friends and we both heard this  joke... " If you have a GSD and a MAL in one room atop a building... then you throw a bone over the window and have each one of them  fetch... the MAL will jump over the window and die ( very Obedient )... the GSD in the other hand will stop by the window pane and then look at you with a sad face..."BOSS is there any stairs near-by.???... I'm afraid to jump..."  What's wrong with our dogs Obedience nowadays...  You have to look for a driven dog then trick him by routing his compulsiveness....  Are there any bloodlines that are proven to be Obedient... I believe the knowledge of a dog is only upto his owner / handlers capacity...

Marci,

I can remember some 20 odd years ago using a similar argument using a cliff top a GSD and a Border Collie.  If you were out throwing a ball and it went over the cliff the Border Collie would just run right of the edge but the GSD would stop and look.

I call it common sense not a lack of obedience and would use it to explain the difference between the GSD and the Border Collie, the fact that BC's don't seem to have any and funnily enought the Mali is much the same.

Jess

So... is there a way to weed out  "independence"  and bring-back that herding instinct... Give me other ways other than STARVING my GSD to death...???  Anyways why the heck do you have to make you dog climb a six-foot wall...He is big and he has other advantages... I'll keep the jumping to other smaller dogs...  He needs to run and play all day... thats his work... and to CLIMB an apple tree to get me a fruit or catch my neighbors cat... (but not to kill him)  Once his PREY -drive sets in ... he's on a world of his own...  Any bloodline with less Prey-drive and more of the other forms of drive..???

I like to think it's INTELLIGENCE and the ability to THINK than disobedience.

I think you are a little confused.

The Mal wouldnt jump off the building because he is obedient.....it has an enromous amount of drive and you threw the thing it wanted off of the building.  It would probably have  very little to do about pleasing its owner.  Just like any other dog with high prey drive.

I could probably get my GSD to run into a wall...or tree if I threw the ball....has nothing to do with obedience.

This is the one thing that detracts from the Mali in my opinion.  They are so driven and pumped up, their tiny brains get flooded with their objective, that they don't have the time or capacity to think.    They're like a 2 yr old with a popsicle.   Watch a young Mali's protection routine.  Most of your work is gaining control.  The one time I like this tunnel vision, is in the courage test.

Marci,

GSDs are supposed to be independent.  Tending (the type of herding our dogs were bred to do) encourages the dog to show initiative and work independently as well as demonstrate obedience.  I consider GSDs to be more thoughtful and less reactionary than all the Belgians and the BCs.  I want that in a good tending dog.  I believe that that is why the GSD is the premier service dog.  Yes, we see fads in service work like the Malinois and Dutchie being promoted now much like the Rotti was pushed and promoted in the 80s but everyone goes back to GSDs in the end. 

If you don't want so much prey drive,  get a different breed.  It is what it is.  They are not , nor should they be a fawning Golden, a reactionary BC or a low-energy Peke!

Susan

PS herding instinct is impossible without prey drive.

Border Collie folks use the word biddable. A herding dog depends on being able to think independent. But that does not excuse disobedience at all. He should be able to think through problems to get his job done, as long as he knows without a doubt what his job is, and do what it takes. However, the biddability comes into play big time while taking a young dog and teaching him his job, untill he can be trusted to think on his own. And even then he should maintain it somewhat as the handler should be able to direct. However, my Borders have many of times disobeyed me as they knew I was out of place or there was some other issue.

And Marci, I agree, the hanlders ability is a big part in the limitations we find in our dogs. (Not always as I happen to have the dumbest but most lovable BC foster right now! Only BC so far that has not been able to outthink me....kinda fun for once!)

I never liked that one track mindedness the Mals have, their drive takes over their little brains. I for one don't want a dog that can't or wont use his own brain. Yes they will "disobey" at times but they still seem to get the job done, just in their own way. If I threw that stick out the window, my dog would take the way out that we just came in, now who's the stupid one? Some trainers will call that "lazy" rather a lazy dog than the dead one, that jumped to his death. My dog has what it takes to stay alive and how can he help me or anyone else if he is dead? He has a good feeling for self preservation, while some of my dogs will run right up in front of a car he will move to the side of the road as to not get hit. If I have to sacrafice a little drive for more brains, so be it.

Ages ago, when reading about German Shepherds as guide dogs for the blind, I heard that as an explanation as to why the GS made a good guide dog and the standard poodle did not. Except they used the example of the dog stopping at the edge of an excavation in the sidewalk. If the blind person ordered the dog forward, the poodle would jump into the excavation, while the German Sheperd would refuse, and block its handler from moving.

That's one reason I was so surprised to hear service dog organizations are now using poodles, while the German Shepherd is being replaced by golden retrievers and labradors!!