What Happened to the Lloyd Bennett Breeding Discussion Thread? - Page 1

There was a thread here yesterday where we were having a serious, polite discussion about an article Lloyd Bennett had written on breeding. Early this morning, I made a post in it,  linking to an article by Fred Lanting, where he suggested outbreeding would be a good thing for the German Shepherd, as opposed to the heavy linebreeding and inbreeding advocated by Bennett..

POOF! This morning the thread is gone!

What happened? WHY?  

I notice the thread on  The blue moon is a Gay resort in Las Vegas  is still here, but this other, serious discussion thread is gone!

And if it was my light-hearted suggestion about getting um....crap on gold, and a salmon-thwacking that caused it, I am indeed sorry. But I've seen much, much worse worse here on this site, and really don't understand why the thread got deleted!

PM me if necessary.

Thanks!

The thread on the scam Victoria Driggs (Kennel Gold-Berg) pulled on a buyer, and how she colored white feet with potassium permaganate and the copy of the judgment court papers against her have also disappeared. It is indeed sad that Oli or whomever does not seem to know what to leave up and what to take down. Some of the stuff posted in the recent past has been in incredibly poor taste, talking badly, for example, about somones' dead wife. Funkman goes routinely out of the bounds of common decency, yet nothing is done about him or his posts. And yes, PJ Carlson, who likely was Victoria herself or her friend, came on only to attack Two Moons posting on the Kennel Gold-Berg scam, and is rude in the comments, but they are still here.

People will NOT be silenced and should not be silenced. This is EXACTLY why the whole GSD world is sp sordid and sort of like a compendium of unethical business behavior. No one can go to a reputable place to find out how to prevent being scammed, cheated or being sold a dog who never shows up, including here. People send dogs to trainers who starve their dog, let clients dogs' die, and no one knows about it because no one will speak up, and when they do, someone wants to delete the thread. Sad state of affairs.

There are enough reputable people here, Bob-O, Louise Penery, Sueincc, Blitzen, Agar, Pia, Shelley and others who know what the score is. If you are a newbie to this world of GSD scams, best be contacting one or more of these people to see that you do not become the next victim. There are many scam artists however who have been here who now just run underground and do their business without being here because they know they will get blasted when their unethical behaviors are disclosed. So it is a buyers beware ALWAYS.

I f someone has the link to the Bennett article, could they post it, please? I was too tired to more than skim it last night, and I would like to read it again.

Thank you.

The Lanting article is here: German Lines: The Case For Outcrossing http://www.siriusdog.com/genetic-diversity-outcrossing.htm

Maybe we can continue this most interesting discussion in a civilized manner!  (If there were naty posts in the previous discussion, I must have missed them....)

Okay, here, once again is the link to the Brackett article:

http://www.nylana.org/RRACI/brackett.htm

I see no reason NOT to repost this, and continue the discussion.  (Wanders off to read it, thoroughly this time!)

I don't get why everyone says this board isn't moderated. Seems to me it is but in a very random way. I was reading that thread, learned some interesting points of view and then it's gone for no discernable reason. I don't get it. It's almost like the board isn't meant to be polite and informative?

Olie seems to be afraid of being sued, Dawgs. The threads that have vanished are usually those that name specific people, and criticize them for things they have done, like ripping people off,  not caring for their dogs properly, etc. Frequently, the person has already been taken to court, or is in the process of being taken to court. If a case is still under trial, I believe there is some sort of law that says you can't discuss it??  (Person is innocent, until proven guilty, which is the reason newspapers have to refer to criminals as the 'alleged' accused.) We had to be aware of this type of situation on the nursing board I moderated, and remove posts of this type, too, but only if the matter hadn't yet been decided in court.

But why the above thread disappeared is a real mystery to me. That article was written in 1960, and we did not violate any copyrights by just linking to it.  (Posting the whole article on this website WOULD have been a violation, something else I became aware of when moderating.) Although some did not agree with Bennett's methods, as far as I recall, the disagreement was done respectfully, and no one could have been accused of slandering him.

I'm totally baffled, and would like to see the thread returned. If there are one or two questionable posts, FINE...delete those posts NOT the whole thread! 

The problem for many of us oldtimers enthusiasts of the GSD breed, is that the longer we have been in it, the more we realize that there are some very serious problems in the breed that many work to cover up due to personal interests. 

For example, although kept from the public or the novice buyer, many know that there has been a serious buildup of health robbing recessives in both show and working lines in the German Shepherd (I'll not even mention the American Shepherd more specifically than to state that where it is at now and what it has become is the direction that some of the German Shepherd lines are moving in, and these animals to me are not real German Shepherds). Who can argue that relevent genetic information about what to watch for in top bloodlines is not readily available and top breeder's and breed wardens are very careful about revealing these trade secrets.  Who can argue against the need for better information and increased use of outcrossing even if it brings a loss of type for awhile?

The way that hips and elbows in being managed right now is not adequate at the one year cutoff, it should be raised to two years and no patchiness of the elbow (DJD) should be allowed.

The way that newcomber breeders, and even too many established ones present and advertise their GSD sales is not completely honest or forthright and in some cases involves deceit, coverup and even switching of animals and misidentification or no positive identification occurs.  Many novice GSD buyers have no clue what they are really in for or what kind of problems they are really purchasing.  Some are so deficient in ability to learn and reason that they become an unbelievable hassle to deal with and pose a risk to the dog's welfare they would purchase, although being somewhat good at concealing it.

Quite a number of these novices are not really reputable themselves and are deceptive to the breeder/seller and even flaky and obnoxious to deal with, giving many breeder/sellers more reasons to treat all buyers less than first class.  Some buyers are outright crooks and liars and do everything to rip of or take advantage of the breeder/seller and have hidden agendas to start up their own GSD breeding program for easy money.  This is why a reputable, knowledgable breeder is worth their weight in Gold to the legitimate buyer and the breed, and so too for an honest, caring buyer who wants to learn about the breed and wants to do what is right for the breed.

 Excellent post Preston!

It does beg the question however as to how we are to help fight the people who are unethical. And we all have said time and again to rookies "do your homework". I have come to the conclusion that unless one accidentally happens on one of the ethical ones who write here, the rookies have no chance because they have no where to go to get reliable information.

Let us take Kraftwerk as an example. It should be noted I have never dealt with this man, nor do I care to. What is obvious to me is that he has MANY, MANY unhappy clients. Yes, here and again someone says they had a positive experience, but people should have the chance to know that there are unhappy clients. They can then decide how to proceed. For my money, when I hear complaint after complaint after complaint, even if there is a good comment here or there, it says to ME that there is a problem somewhere. Yes, there are buyers who are morons, who are also dishonest and who also do not know what they want. I have seen them too but I turn them away in a heart beat because it is NOT about the money for me but about the dogs.

So this is the dilemma. The GSD world is filled with unscrupulous and unethical people. Too many!! And those of us who know this are as guilty as they are when we do nothing to stop it. We are not talking small talk and someone trying to get back at someone because their dog placed better etc., we are talking people who are cheating people.

What can be done? Or is it simply hopeless?

Yes Hodie, you are so correct as you usually are.  This is a huge issue for any novice buyer.  It is always caveat emptor (buyer beware). It's like the old phrase, "he who has gets more, and he who has little loses that".  

Quite a few novice, first time GSD buyers are impaired in their ability to learn of what the standard is, what a good and healthy dog is, where one can find current health information on what to watch out for and vet for or even the need for a pre-purchase vetting.  And quite a few long time breeders themselves are impaired in their ability to know the standrad and judge correct conformation and correct temperament, as well as what the actual health and genetic issue are.  Many are moving far too gfast doing too many things in their lives to stop, collect information and sort through it.  Then the selection of breeders, that's a whole other difficult issue.  Many respond to fancy internet sites and bs.  We all know of several breeders who have done a job conning and scamming buyers and have not done the breed justice. 

There sems to be no good vehicle to inform, train and educate buyers or even breeeders.  Many breeders would not dare discuss serious genetic issues because their disclosures would quickly spread and be used against them by other less reputable breeders trying to gain an advantage. 

What bothers me the most is when good folks who are first time buyers are taken advantage of and sold an unhealthy GSD that is misrepresented as healthy by either a crooked breeder or a breeder that is ignorant or misinformed themself.  One of the big advantages folks in Germany and Europe have is the great proliferation of local GSD clubs where they can work together and educate each other.  The USA is so spread out you don't se very much of this.

I always wondered about promoting a summary sheet of the GSD breed with a suggested list of vetting requirements and requirements to be met by the sire and dam as purchase conditions to minimize risk.  This could be similar to the GSDCA breeders code, but much more specific and medically/gentically valid.  It would have to be promoted by the breed clubs and I doubt this would ever happen because the "cost" and ramifications would be too great.

This information IS available on the AKC website, Preston. There is a lot of info there on selecting a puppy. I think the GSDCA has information as well.

But people just dont' stop to think. They would rather buy on impulse. They see that cute pup in the pet store window, and BAM! They've got themselves a load of problems...