Proper age for starting protection work - Page 1

I am very enthused by how well the thread from yesterday went.  I think I will press my luck a bit and start a new topic and see how it goes.  Maybe we can once again have a serious, informative and civil discussion.  Many people new to the sport come to this site looking for intellegent advise.  Frankly, I think most of the time we (people who have some experience in the sport or with dogs) fail them. 

  Many people will start working a puppy at a very young age.  The pups are taught the fundementals of gripping, barking, etc. as a game.  Later, as the dog matures, the dog is taught that bite work is a fight and is serious.  I currently work with a person (has shown many times at the national level and has also shown at the world level) who subscribes to this idea.  This person will start a puppy very young and teach the fundementals of barking and gripping.  This person currently has a 10 month old puppy that already has a clear picture of what he is doing and already shows a lot of power, of course the dog is a very good one.   

On the other hand, I have worked with a person from Belgium in the past.  This person has also shown to the highest levels and has won the WUSV.  They suggest waiting until the dog is older, about 1 year before really starting to do any  protection work.  The reasoning behind this is that at one year the dog is able to handle and understand working in defense.  This allows the helper to use prey and defense, as needed, right from the start.  Their feeling is that before this age, the dog can be worked only in prey and if this is done the dog can go too far in that direction.  

  Obviously, both have had a great deal of success.  (I am not naming any names as I don't want  people to be biased, nor do I want them to think that I am "name dropping").   

  So what do you guys think?

As before, all comments and ideas are welcomed.  This board should be used for learning.   

A one year old dog that can handle serious defense?

Did I say "serious" defense?  But the thinking is that at 1 year the dog can understand and work, to some degree, in defense. 

ok, my two cents,

i have always worked young dogs in bite work.  let the pup bite, wait till they regrip, and then they win.  teach them early and often that the only way to win is with a full mouth.  next step, they have to bark to make the pray move. then they get to bite. hopefully you can see the progression this is going.

i have seen dogs trained both ways also.   i cant say that one is better than the other.  i think it has to do more with the training style the helper is more comforatable with. 

as the old saying goes "the only thing 2 dog trainers can agree on is what the 3rd one is doing wrong."

it would, in my eyes, take a more expierenced helper to read the dog and be able to tell what state the dog is working in and how to get the most out of them.

i am currently reading a book about protection training written by Helmut Raiser.  talk about an eye opener.  it would benefit a lot of people to take a few bites from different types of dogs, so they too would get a better understanding of what mode a dog is truly working in.  of course you would also have to have a knowledgable source with you to help figure it all out.

after all of that, did i answer the question?

john

" Did I say "serious" defense? "

Nope, That is why I asked. Note the question mark at the end

I prefer to work a dog in prey only until its mature enough to handle defense. Usually around 2 -2 1/2 years in my opinion.

Jason,

Thanks for your thoughts, but at 2- 2 1/2 the dog is already SchH3, you do this only in prey?

that brings up another point.  all dogs mature at differnt rates.  as an accomplished trainer told me once " i wait for the dog to tell me, hey im ready for a little more" 

being able to read a dog correctly  would have to be the most important factor.

john

Excellent point John!

"at 2- 2 1/2 the dog is already SchH3, you do this only in prey?"

Nope.  I Wouldn't even attempt to have a Sch 3 on a 2 - 2 1/2 year old dog.

Why not?  This is pretty common.  

To quote the Belgians (at least one well known one in particular)  "Age three is an old dog in Belgium, if they have done nothing by then, they are finished."

  None the less, 2 1/2 years is ample time (in my opinion) to make all the training for SchH3.