Active vs Silent guard - Page 1

OK guys.  I just wanted to introduce a training related topic, after all this BS that has been floating around.  I figure if so many people are going to use their energy and time replying to posts, the posts may as well be about something constructive. 

  I prefer a silent guard as it eliminates so many problems.  Often with active guarding you will see  the dog bouncing around a lot.  This can create problems with them getting dirty and also they may not be able to get a good grip on reattacks.  You may also find that many helpers suddenly get mushy when they think that they may be bit in the face, so all of a sudden the dog finds himself at an advantage with a weak helper and outing becomes a problem.   Cleaning up and making intensity to the helper in silent guards is also, in my opinion, easier to accomplish.

  I can understand an active guard used initially and then converted to silent guard to create intensity to the helper, but why use an active guard as a final product?

All thoughts are welcomed.  After all, this board should be used for learning.     

"but why use an active guard as a final product?" 

because judges find it more impressive, simply put.  too many times the silent guard is taught for the reasons you listed, dog gets dirty etc.  one must admit it is nice to see a dog do a convincing guard after the out, without getting dirty.  it gives the judge a chance to see if the dog can be clean after it has had pressure put on it.   its one thing to teach a dog a clean bark and hold, it is something more to  teach it a clean guard after it has been pressured with or without stick hits. 

john

Good response.  Now we are getting somewhere!  More opinions?

the silent gaurd is very tricky to train, ofen when you see the silent guard the dog will either look back for the handler (which will cost you points) or start barking and perhaps get dirty (costing you points)  i prefer the active gaurd.  IMO if the dog gets dirty he either doesnt understand the exerisice of hasnt been given enough motivation not to get dirty. 

as  spectator i prefer to see the active guard.  it will seperate the extremely strong dog from the average ones. 

especially those that that bark for all they are worth after the long bite and dont get dirty.

Thank you for the response W Scott. 

The looking back can be dealt with very simply by correcting the behavior.  Maybe with electric, maybe by the helper with a line.  Starting to bark can also be corrected, maybe the helper chokes the dog and tells him "sit", maybe by another method.  

  Making the guarding clean is one thing.  But what  about the dog that is in the helper's face?  This behavior is taught for the bark and hold, and this is the behavior the dog will fall back to.  Is it not likely that the dog will not be able to get a good grip on the reattack if he is leaping in the helper's face?  

  I love this.  This message board is being used for good, and we are getting excellent replies!   

I agree that a dog bouncing like Tigger can often times end up with a very poor grip on the re-attack. Not every helper out there is going to time it perfectly so that Fido can get the perfect bite.

In theory you shouldn't lose any points for an out stare but I'm sure plenty of judges will ding you for it just as personal preference. 

Having the other white meat breed I like the out stare....I need my dog to save all the energy he has!...lol

Keith Jenkins

it is true that the "bouncers"  can get a bad bite, especially if the helper moves while the dog is in the air.  i have never been a fan of the dogs who jump and  bark in the helpers face.  1- it can be unsafe (usually for the helper)  2- you have to have a helper who will wait till the dog is on the ground to do  a re-attack  to get  a full bite.   if you end up with a helper who wants to make your dog look bad, all they have to do is wait till your dog is in the air to start their attack. 

i teach my dogs to stay on the ground when guarding for the bark and hold and also on open field.

john

Keith,

  The silent guard is perfectly acceptable, and judges should not have a probelm with it as long as it is intense. 

John,

  Maybe I am in the minority, but I like a dog that is in the helper's face and is very pushy and convincing in the blind.  After all, in the blind he is not going to a party to beg for cookies.  He is going to a fight, and he better know that he has to bring all he has or the helper will kill him.  Of course he must know that there are rules for the fight (no touching) and it is up to us to teach that.  Of course when the blind is taught in such a manner some dogs, no matter what you do, will insist on getting airborne.   This is the behavior (I feel) they will bring to the active guard, possibly resulting in a missed bite.  

Again, I am loving that we are actually talking training here.  Please keep the posts and new ideas coming.   

Z-

i agree that it can be convincing, but as a sport guy points count.  i dont want my dog to cost me points by bumping the helper.  you can teach them to stay on the ground, ie they will only get a bite from staying there.  a long line and some checks from it to stay low is one way.

take a look at my male, he is very convincing, yet has been taught to stay on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZzgDuQIKQ0

john

I'm completely ignorant about Shutzhund training, but I would think a silent guard would require so much more control for the dog considering the pressure and his own excitement. It must be harder to train for.  Maybe the greater challenge?

From my point of view it would be easier for me to disable a jumping dog than one whos staring me down.   And the dog could respond so much faster being focused on every movement of the helper.

And you say judges like it because it is more exciting to watch?   What about a real life situation were life and death is a factor?  

I hope I dont sound stupid.   It is a subject worthy of this board.